National Defence Committee on Feb. 12th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I call this meeting to order.

I see that it's 11 o’clock and we have quorum.

I'm particularly pleased to see the minister here today. I appreciate that the committee had to make some accommodations in the last week, but he's looking hale and hearty.

Welcome, Minister.

I also want to take note that our colleague Shelby Kramp-Neuman's father died in the last few days. I had the privilege of being with Daryl in years past, as I believe James and Cheryl did as well. He was a really stand-up guy and a really good member of Parliament. I will be circulating a card to everyone to remember our colleague in these difficult times.

With that, it looks like we're going to have another go at last Wednesday. As I said, I'm more than pleased to see the minister here, looking hale, hearty and healthy.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I'd like to thank this committee for its indulgence last week. Unfortunately, I was not able to attend last Wednesday, and I hope it was not too inconvenient for all to have to reschedule this for today.

Also, I would like to offer my condolences to Mrs. Shelby Kramp-Neuman on the passing of her father. Her father was a well-known and greatly respected former police officer, as well as a parliamentarian. Certainly she's in our thoughts.

I am joined this morning at the table by the deputy minister, Bill Matthews, and Major-General Erick Simoneau, chief of staff, professional conduct and culture, who can provide information on the CAF grievance system and the transformation process, which is currently under way. I'm also joined by Brigadier-General Rob Holman, who is our judge advocate general. He'll be able to provide information on the framework of the grievance process, as well as the legal relationships with various independent actors involved in the military system. Finally, I'm joined by Taylor Paxton, our corporate secretary, who is responsible for the coordination and administration of the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act for National Defence as well as for providing advice and guidance on the application of the acts themselves.

Our military and civilian staff are guided by several core tenets: They must be politically impartial and must be transparent and accountable first and foremost to Canadians. These tenets are fundamental to our democracy, and we will always work to improve our processes to ensure that we meet our obligations. That includes how we manage access to information and the various complaint mechanisms in place for our civilian and uniformed people alike.

If I may, I will begin with access to information. During fiscal year 2022-23, National Defence received 2,241 new ATI requests. Over that same period, they closed 2,242, with 61.73% of requests closed within the legislated timelines. Last year's rates represent an increase from last year and are part of a general upward trend.

Let's be clear. The Department of National Defence needs to do better, and our team is hard at work to ensure that this, in fact, happens. Despite the fact that DND and the CAF are two large, intertwined organizations that deal with highly sensitive information and are challenged by size and complexity, there is never an excuse for failing to meet our legal requirements. I didn't come here today to offer excuses.

DND and CAF have introduced new programs and initiatives to ensure that the new rules are being met and that the departmental processes are improving overall. These include moving to a paperless process to manage ATIPs and acquiring new software to speed up the processing of ATIP requests; reinforcing the requirements for senior leaders to ensure they are committed to compliance; and improving training required for all members of the defence team on their obligations.

DND must and will improve how it responds to ATIP requests, building upon recommendations from the 2022 “Access to Information Review” report to Parliament and the Information Commissioner's 2020 special report to Parliament, which focused specifically on National Defence.

Of the 2,242 requests that I mentioned earlier, staff provided a “no records exist” response in 593 of cases, or 26%. There are several different reasons why the department may provide a nil response such as this. For example, the retention period for a document may have passed, or the information is not tracked by the department. We all recognize that access to information is a right for all Canadians, and at the introduction of Bill C-58, our ATIP processes changed further to accommodate regulations around proactive disclosure and to respect additional powers granted to the Information Commissioner.

With respect to internal complaints mechanisms, just as all Canadians have a right to obtain information about their government, our employees have the right to hold their leadership accountable through comprehensive complaint mechanisms. These include the National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman's office, the CAF grievance process and the Military Police Complaints Commission of Canada. Similarly, CAF members can choose to submit sexual misconduct complaints through their chain of command or independently. Depending on the circumstances, this may include through the police of jurisdiction or the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

No matter which mechanism members are engaged with, they must know that their complaints will be taken seriously, that investigations will take place free of political influence and that their privacy rights will be respected at all times. For most matters, CAF members can personally make grievances to a commanding officer or designate, which is the initial authority. If they are not satisfied with the decision of the initial authority, they can then ask the chief of the defence staff or a delegate to reconsider their grievance as the final authority. At this point, the Military Grievances External Review Committee will often provide recommendations to assist the CDS in making the final decision.

Members of the defence team can also contact the National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman if they feel they have been treated unfairly and if they are looking for information or are uncertain about how to deal with an issue. The ombudsman's office forwards their findings to the appropriate DND or CAF authority.

The Military Police Complaints Commission of Canada is another oversight agency that operates at arm's length from the Government of Canada. The commission reviews and investigates complaints concerning military police conduct and investigates allegations of interference in military police investigations.

Each of these organizations comprises dedicated, hard-working officials committed to keeping our institutions accountable. It's critical that no interference from the government or senior leadership occur in these investigations.

Mr. Chair and committee members, we are working hard to improve our processes, while ensuring that these organizations remain at arm's length from senior leadership, including the implementation of CAF-wide grievance transformation efforts. We know we have work to do. We welcome any insights into this work and any proposed recommendations that may come from your review.

Thank you very much. I'll now happily answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

Before I open the six-minute round, starting with Mr. Bezan, I'll just remind committee members that we undertook a study on transparency of the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces that includes but is not limited to the access to information and privacy system, the independence of the office of the Department of National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces Ombudsman, the declassification system for historic documents, whistle-blower protections, the independence of the grievance process, and information management systems.

I have observed in the past a certain enthusiasm from members to ask questions not entirely related to the study. I would rather hope that members will humour the chair and tie their questions to this study.

Mr. Bezan, you have six minutes, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to extend my condolences to Shelby Kramp-Neuman and the entire Kramp family. Daryl was a close personal friend, and I'm hoping to be at his funeral on Thursday.

Minister, thank you for coming, especially on this study, because National Defence does not have a great reputation when it comes to transparency. The Information Commissioner, in the past, has criticized National Defence as being one of the worst offenders of leaving things outstanding.

There were the stories around Vice-Admiral Mark Norman. Code names were used instead of his name by National Defence to hide all memos and correspondence relating to the Mark Norman affair. That was critiqued and criticized.

We know that with former chief of the defence staff Jon Vance, there were questions around transparency and the cover-up that happened for a few years, with the department and the minister knowing at that time that there were complaints against the former general.

I'm looking at the report on the administration of the Privacy Act by National Defence. I'm looking at page 9, figure 7. One year is completely missing—2019-20. Was there nothing in that year? If that was a typo or an error, what's the number that should be there?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

If I may, I'm going to turn to officials. I don't have that report in front of me.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It's the most recent report, Mr. Matthews.

[Bill Matthews, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

I will come back and confirm the numbers. My recollection is that service standards for ATIP responses during the COVID period deteriorated, let's just say. I know that during COVID—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

When I look at figure 7 and at 2018-19 or earlier, I see there are three outstanding requests as of March 2023. Is that number accurate, Minister or Deputy Minister?

[Bill Matthews]

I'm tracking five now, date- and time-stamped, that are late. I cannot speak to the accuracy at the time, but I'm now tracking five.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

This is a report from the department, Minister. I know for a fact that I have four outstanding ATIPs from before that time. I have one filed back on October 13, 2017, and one on October 4, 2018. There's another one on January 24, 2019, and another on March 6, 2019. There are four right there that your department is aware of, and it finally got back to me with “We're still working on it”.

Why have these ATIPs been allowed to go this long when the act says 30 days? Is this political obstruction because it comes from the shadow minister of defence?

[Bill Matthews]

Shall I take that?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Minister, I put it to you; it's your department. When you were the Minister of Public Safety, the RCMP and CBSA didn't have a great track record on transparency either. What are you doing to rectify this?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We worked hard when I was in Public Safety to improve that record and improve transparency. As I've acknowledged in my opening remarks, I think there remains work to do. I've talked a bit about the processes that are under way.

Unfortunately, I don't have available to me while sitting here in front of you information about those ATIPs. I will happily look into the status of yours in particular. I believe, first of all, that every Canadian has a right to timely access to that information if it's available to be provided.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It speaks to our democracy when any of us as parliamentarians ask the ministry for this information. I'm talking about correspondence around the national shipbuilding strategy. We're talking about some hospitality records and correspondence around Canada's fighter force and the future of the F-18s. We're talking about Cyclones.

These are all things that we parliamentarians need for doing our jobs here at committee and in the House and when working with our constituents and stakeholders. Why would this be blocked, with no response ever provided?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, I don't believe it should be blocked. That information, if it's available, should be made available to you as quickly as possible and certainly within the timelines that are required under statute. Frankly, I don't disagree that in your responsibilities as a parliamentarian, access to that information.... I know that my office deals with a number of OPQs that we receive from you, and we work very hard to make sure that we respond to those in a timely way.

If you've made those applications through the ATIP process, I'll happily go back and review each one if you provide me with that information, and we'll get you answers as quickly as possible.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We have all the file numbers and the correspondence and—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That would be very helpful. I'd appreciate it if you would provide it to me, and we'll look into all those.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Well, do that, because it doesn't smell good when parliamentarians are asking the ministry for information and are not getting that information. It's not allowing us to do the work that we do up here to make sure that policies, programs and legislation are being properly implemented.

We talk about obstruction of justice and information. We talk about obstruction of officers up here like the Information Commissioner, which has criminality tied to it. If I took these complaints directly to the office of the commissioner, would she be able to get these results? The department has failed.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

You've made reference to the ministry. Those don't come to my office. They go to both DND and the CAF. At the same time, if you have queries, I'll happily assist your office in determining their status, and we'll get you the information you require, James, as quickly as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Bezan, I interpret that as an undertaking on the part of the minister. Hopefully this undertaking will be completed before we finish this study. That should be dealt with as expeditiously as possible, sooner rather than later.

Mr. Fisher, you have six minutes, please.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, folks, for being here. I appreciate your team being here again after last week when you couldn't make it, Minister. I'm glad to hear that you're feeling better, and I certainly send my sympathies to Shelby and her family as well.

Minister, my question is about National Defence being a chronic offender for ATIP requests, much like Mr. Bezan's question. You touched on that in your opening comments. It does sound like there is work being done to seek improvement, so that makes me feel much better, but you also acknowledged that DND needs to do better.

You touched on some of the programs. You talked about going paperless. Could you give us some specific initiatives that are in place to continue improving this project? Again, if you are seen as a chronic offender, how do we get to where we need to get?

I know that as a parliamentarian, I can pull you aside in the House of Commons. You've been absolutely incredible, in all of your roles in previous ministries, at getting the information that parliamentarians ask of you.

What specifically are you and your department doing to make those improvements?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, part of the challenge is that so many of the processes and reports of DND are paper-based. Because of the size and geographic spread right around the globe of many of our departments and operations, that can be significantly challenging in meeting the timelines of an ATIP request. Digitizing those processes along with many other processes in the administration of the Canadian Armed Forces is a significant undertaking and a necessary undertaking to make sure that information is more readily available.

Quite often, when the ATIP requests come in, we want to make sure that our response is comprehensive and thorough, but there are many different files and documents that need to be searched, and that can be time-consuming. There are also staffing pressures when dealing with that that we are working hard to meet. That's a responsibility, primarily, of the officials I have before me today. We're also making sure that we continue to advance our work in digitizing those processes. It's going to be a significant improvement in our ability to access that information in a more timely way.

By the way, very similar challenges were faced in my Public Safety portfolio and with a number of our other federal departments as well. These are important investments that we are making in order to be more responsive and more quickly responsive to Canadians' concerns about access to information.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I think of the number you started with—2,241 ATIP requests. I presume the bulk of those are political, but transparency isn't just about ATIPs; it could also be about the declassification of historical records.

You stated in your answer to one of the questions that every Canadian has a right to this information. History was one of my favourite subjects in high school, so I'm thinking about how some of this information that Canadians are seeking could be invaluable to researchers.

What is being done to ensure access to documents that may fit in that category?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I would actually disagree. You said the majority of those would be political. I don't believe so. I think there's a very strong interest in academia, and even among Canadians, about the operations of the Canadian Armed Forces. National defence, I think, is quite appropriately an interest and a preoccupation for many Canadians, particularly as the world becomes an increasingly dangerous place.

I would also point out that in supporting national defence, we're spending public dollars. Therefore, the public has every interest in how we're spending those dollars. Even when the questions come from a political source, I don't question their legitimacy.

One of the challenges we face, because of the nature of the work we do, is some of that information doesn't necessarily reside only with us. For example, I can think of one request that happened fairly recently with respect to the national shipbuilding strategy. To respond to that request, we also required information from a number of private contractors we are working with in the building of those ships, and their legal requirements for the disclosure of that information are different from ours. Finding the ability to respond appropriately.... We make every effort to try to get as much accurate information as possible, but working with contractors and private entities presents a particular challenge.

Additionally, some of the work we do is sensitive by its very nature, as well as complex, and the disclosure of that information publicly could have the effect of compromising the CAF's ability to do its very important job of keeping the country safe and defending our national interests. There also has to be work done—it's just the nature of many of the requests for information that we receive—to make sure the information disclosed is disclosed publicly.

There are certain circumstances when information may be deleted from ATIP responses and blacked out, as it were, but we try very hard to err on the side of transparency whenever possible.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thanks, Minister.