National Defence Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Bill Matthews]

AUKUS partners have indicated that they are working on a framework for adding other countries as partners on projects. That framework is not yet developed, but we are actively engaged in discussions.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What is the earliest possible date that the procurement process for the new submarines will begin and the earliest date to announce the winner of the bid based on the planning group's work so far?

[Bill Matthews]

The options analysis has started. We have had a team meeting with various manufacturers of traditional conventional submarines. We will be looking at options to bring to the government for a decision. They will include conventional versus nuclear, but also the number of submarines. At this stage I cannot give you an answer on when that will be.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Right now, if we're lucky, for every four submarines we have one in the water. I'll be asking about the numbers later.

Locally, General Eyre, you would be familiar with Petawawa. There has been no additional housing for the barracks for new recruits. I understand it's on a cyclical basis, but that's where the majority of Ontario troops end up starting off. We have a lot of capacity and new regiments standing up.

When are we going to see some housing so that people can afford to be in the military?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, I will take this one first before turning it over to the deputy minister.

I agree. Housing is a challenge right across the board, not just in Petawawa. In Ontario, we have to look at our other bases as well. Trenton is another one.

We need to take a look at different ways of doing housing as well. One of the options we're exploring is public-private partnerships. We have the land. Interested land developers could perhaps help us develop that. There's interest in certain parts of the country. What I do know is that we need to rapidly accelerate housing construction because there is a shortfall across the country, including for our members.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Where's the money for this though?

We all know that land can be repurposed—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mrs. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

—but there's no money.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mrs. Gallant, you've gone way past your time.

I have been negligent in not introducing Peter Hammerschmidt, ADM policy. He had a lot to do with the writing of the DPU. Apparently this is his first time before the committee. I would ask members to be gentle with him.

With that, I'll turn it over to Mr. Fisher.

You have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

General, I thank you and your team for being here today. You're here at committee a lot, and we certainly appreciate it.

It's really important that the DPU reflect Canada's needs and Canada's priorities but also those of our allies. As a member of the NATO PA, I get a chance to rub elbows with parliamentarians from dozens of countries, and more recently, of course, with the new additions.

Can you talk a little bit about the air defence system in the update and how it's going to invest in Canada's needs and priorities but also in those of our NATO allies?

[Peter Hammerschmidt, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you for the kind introduction.

I can answer, and maybe the chief will want to jump in afterwards.

As part of the process for the consultations for the development of this policy, of course, as you can well imagine, we did consult allies extensively, among other stakeholders. Allies really imparted to us the importance of Canada's continuing to play a really important role in the Euro-Atlantic space, as we're doing, for example, in Latvia but also in our own space in the Arctic and on the continent. They are making a link between Canada and North America as a continent being NATO's western flank and also NATO's northern flank, and a link between our defence of that space and the defence of the Euro-Atlantic space and NATO's overall deterrence and defence agenda.

That really helped inform the focus in the policy on the Arctic and on defending the continent. The consultations also helped inform the proposed investments—the commitment to pursue a number of investments and to explore others—that will ensure that the CAF will have the capability it needs to be able to play the role that it's expected to play in the allied context, including in the Euro-Atlantic space.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

If I can, I'll make two points on this.

Firstly, we're very happy to see the policy with the regional focus on the Arctic, as are our allies. This has been a regional vulnerability, especially for our U.S. allies. Speaking to the chair of the military committee of NATO last week, they're very happy as well. That's our regional focus.

Given what we're facing as a globally integrated threat environment, if we have wider war in Europe with NATO and if there is war in Asia, it's going to be across the globe. The Arctic is now an area of competition, and potentially conflict, so the regional focus on that part is well received.

The second piece in the document is discussion about the integrated air and missile defence, which is absolutely the way to go forward. The clearest, starkest example of this is what happened 48 hours ago in Israel, with multiple types of weapons being shot against the country—several types of drones, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles—and the integrated nature of the response, with aircraft, ground-based air defence of various types, ship-based air defence and the command-and-control system that brought them together.

We have some investments here and through NORAD modernization in the sensors that are required. Mrs. Gallant talked about the pan-domain command and control that's going to be required to bring it all together.

This concept, as we go forward for continental defence, is increasingly important, not just here in North America but also with respect to our commitments in NATO and in the Indo-Pacific.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I'm not sure how much time I have left, but there are two topics I want to touch on. First, the minister talked about the MOU with the Czech government to provide Ukraine with ammunition. Also, in the NATO PA, we have the conversation on a regular basis about just how hard it is to ramp up domestic production in all of the NATO countries.

Can you tell me just a bit about that?

If there's any time left, could you touch on the joint CAF-CSE cyber-operations group? I believe that question would probably go to Ms. Xavier.

[Bill Matthews]

I'll start with ammunition, and then I can turn to the other chief on cyber.

On the funds for Ukraine and ammunition, the Czechs have done a great job of setting up a pool to acquire ammunition. Those funds have been transferred and those acquisitions are ongoing.

On the ramp-up of domestic production of ammunition, these are long timelines. What we actually want is a new production line started. That will take time. In the interim, the production of the current round domestically has increased over the past year. Our eventual goal is a new production line, so those discussions will recommence shortly, now that we have a policy decision.

On cyber....

[Caroline Xavier]

Yes. Thanks for the question.

Just building on what I said earlier, this investment being made in the DPU is really an opportunity for us to continue the work we've been doing since budget 2022 investments.

We've been working jointly with the CAF on the foreign cyber-operations program. This will be the opportunity to continue to stand that up in the way the CDS explained a few minutes ago, whereby we can continue to jointly and uniquely use our respective skills to be able to use a foreign cyber-operations program to do our part in protecting Canadians and Canada.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I have 30 seconds left. I'll happily pass them along to the next person.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sure Ms. Mathyssen will appreciate that.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

General Eyre, I'd like to follow up on the last question I put to the minister. We know that it is the missions that make the armed forces attractive. The minister spoke to me about what is happening in Latvia, but he did not answer my question about the rapid reaction force, although he did admit that there were problems with personnel and equipment.

So I repeat my question: Is it reasonable to expect that a rapid reaction peacekeeping force can be deployed in 2026, as the government has promised?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Thank you for your question.

In fact, we already have a rapid reaction force. For example, last fall, after the attack in Israel, we deployed a rapid reaction force to the Middle East to evacuate noncombatants if needed. We now have a team in Haiti to support the embassy, which was deployed quickly. So we now have a team that can be deployed anywhere in the world if necessary.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

I understand, however, that a limited number of members have been deployed on operations in Cyprus and Haiti. Yet Canada had promised a force of 200 troops, including logistical support. Is it realistic to think that this will happen by 2026?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

In fact, in October and November, we deployed an additional 500 members of the Canadian Armed Forces to the Middle East to prepare for an evacuation, if necessary.

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, I would like to add something about the promise to establish a rapid reaction force for 2026 or 2027.

That's a discussion with the United Nations around a rapid response force for peacekeeping. We will continue to work with the United Nations to look for possible opportunities there. However, I want to stress that, in the interim, the UN has stressed to Canada that specialized training, capacity building and tactical airlift is where it is seeing the greatest value from Canada. I did want to mention that this is a dialogue with the United Nations.

Mr. Hammerschmidt, do you have anything to add?

[Peter Hammerschmidt]

I don't have much to add. That's exactly it.

The skills that the UN is looking for from countries like Canada are things like specialized training and capacity building. These are things we can offer to other countries to help them deploy peacekeeping operations.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Despite everything, I understand that the promise has still not been honoured. Whether it will be remains to be seen.

I would like to come back to the comments made by the chair of the committee about my math. The minister mentioned that I had not taken into account the modernization of NORAD, the North American Aerospace Defence Command, in my question. However, this modernization of NORAD was announced in March 2023, before the budget cuts were announced.

In August, when the President of the Treasury Board, Anita Anand, asked ministers to reduce their spending, which led the Department of National Defence to announce budget cuts of around $900 million a year in September, I imagine that work was already under way on updating the defence policy. So, in August, before the department announced budget cuts of $900 million, did we already know that we were going to take money out of one pocket and put it into another through the defence policy for the next two years?

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for the question.

The decision to update the defence policy is a very recent one. At the time of the government's announcement on spending cuts, we didn't know exactly how much money was going to be added to the defence policy.

What I would suggest for members, as you watch this space going forward around defence spending.... The reductions or reallocation exercise the government has launched for all departments, including defence, very much targeted operational funding. You are seeing new investment in the defence policy that's now been articulated. It's a mix of capital and, frankly, heavily weighted towards capital.

I would distinguish, as you watch this space, between vote 5, which is our capital spending, and vote 1, which is our operating spending. Obviously, they have to go hand in hand to make sure you support the various activities. I would watch the interplay between those two things as time goes on.

However, what still holds is the 1.76% by 2029-30, in terms of percentage of GDP. That number factors in everything we know.