Evidence of meeting #82 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was electricity.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
May 21st, 2013 / 5:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I want to follow up on that, then, as well. I'm going to ask you how we compare with the United States, with what they're doing there.
I'm from southwestern Saskatchewan, so I've seen what's going on in southeastern Saskatchewan and just across the border as well. How do we compare in terms of our training for journeymen compared to what's going on in the States, and are they—
5:10 p.m.
Director of Canadian Affairs, United Association Canada, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada
Miles ahead of them.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
—stealing ours, or are we borrowing theirs?
5:10 p.m.
Director of Canadian Affairs, United Association Canada, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada
No, none of our guys, or none that I know of, are heading to the United States. We're importing Americans.
Regarding trades training, the Canadian system is miles ahead of the American's. I shouldn't say that because those people pay me, but that's the way it is. That's the truth of the matter.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Okay. Let's take up again a little bit longer strand of what Mr. Trost talked about.
We've got the five temporary welders, was it, foreign workers or whatever?
5:10 p.m.
Director of Canadian Affairs, United Association Canada, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada
Yes, if you had five welders.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
If they've got five of them there, what would be your plan to go from having five temporary foreign workers and fifteen Canadians working to having twenty Canadians working? How would you see us through to where we don't—as the NDP has been saying for weeks—need as many foreign workers as we have? Do you have a plan or do you have a suggested plan going from bringing those temporary foreign workers in to training Canadians to do those jobs so that in the future our young people are doing them instead of having to go to other places?
5:10 p.m.
Director of Canadian Affairs, United Association Canada, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada
We're accelerating our welder program because we know that we're low on welders. We've neglected it for far too long. It still takes three years to produce a top-quality alloy welder. In the time that it takes us to get those people up, we're going to have to use some temporary foreign workers. We like to use Americans, because Americans go home. At the end of the job they go back to where they came from and leave the jobs in Canada, for Canadians.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
We've had discussions here at committee numerous times. We have the same challenges all across energy, all across the oil and gas sector. When we did a study on the north, we heard how they're short 8,000 to 10,000 people. Do we have enough Canadians? Can we train enough, quickly enough, to deal with what we need to do over the next 10 to 15 years?
5:10 p.m.
Director of Canadian Affairs, United Association Canada, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada
I don't think we can train enough to look after what's in front of us now. I also think there is some work to be done within the industry. I think that if we could get the oil companies to stagger shutdowns and expansions, we could utilize the workforce. Unfortunately, everything is market-driven. They want to get to market. Suncor wants to get there before Syncrude, and Syncrude wants to get there before Suncor.
If you look right now, we have five major projects going on in Alberta, all at the same time. We did nothing in 2008 and half of 2009. The economy was down, that's why it wasn't done. We'd be severely challenged to meet what's in front of us right now, but we will have most of it.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I know where the treasury is in our province—it's in the young aboriginal workforce, which we really need to get engaged in employment.
5:10 p.m.
Director of Canadian Affairs, United Association Canada, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada
There's no doubt that there is a tremendous workforce in the aboriginal communities. It's not being utilized.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Director of Policy, Manufacturing Competitiveness and Innovation, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
Generally, in our sector, we welcome the Canada job grant because it puts the money in the hands of the businesses. In light of the skills shortage, we've been supporting it. It's very close to one of our recommendations in our pre-budget submission—to provide a tax credit. But in the end, it's the same purpose.
What I hear from our members is that those who are outside the big cities may be facing more temporary foreign workers, because they have a more difficult time attracting workers. What I hear a lot is that most of our members would rather train someone than go through temporary foreign workers, because the TFW program can take up to six months to get done, and it costs approximately $10,000 in fees associated with the labour market opinion.
One thing that we didn't like in the budget bill, as I mentioned at the finance committee, is that the government wants to exclude the labour market opinion fees from the User Fees Act. That, to us, is a bit concerning, because then you don't have a framework with regard to how government will set the fees for labour market opinion.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Mr. Burpee, we've heard a couple witnesses come here and talk about energy corridors—pipelines, electrical transmission lines running in the same areas, and those kinds of things. Do you have any comments on those, or anything that you'd like to speak to? Is it practical? Is it a dream? What do you think?
5:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
I guess in the long term it would be practical, if it's getting two very independent industries to work together. There's always a challenge in building linear infrastructure like that—no one wants it near them. I think if you could put it together, it would actually be manageable, but right now they're completely independent planning processes.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Anderson.
We have Mr. Julian, followed by Mr. Garneau, and then a Conservative member.
Go ahead, please, Mr. Julian.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'll be dividing my time with Ms. Liu.
I want to come back to you, Mr. Telford. You've been very eloquent in talking about the abuses of the TFW program and the fact that the government has not carried its responsibility forward on this. But it is troubling to me that we're also seeing cutbacks by this government in training and in manpower development. What we're seeing is a worsening of the situation, really, if we look forward ten years, because of cutbacks in training budgets. Even though I know that the UA is doing its part and a number of businesses are doing their part, the federal government is simply not there.
What we see, then, on the horizon is that not only will the abuses continue within the TFW program, but that we'll also see an increasing number of TFWs brought in because we haven't done our work as a country and the federal government has not been putting in place the training programs that are needed—for welders, for example, of which you've spoken very eloquently.
I want to ask you a question around Keystone. You talked about two seasons of eight to nine weeks to complete that project. The Alberta Federation of Labour has estimated that it costs about 40,000 jobs to export that raw bitumen rather than have it upgraded and refined here in Canada, and we continue to have a government that looks to exporting raw bitumen on the one hand and importing refined products into eastern Canada on the other.
Don't you think it's a more practical approach, in a national energy strategy, to put in place programs such that we have the upgrading and refining capacity here to create those permanent jobs that you spoke about so eloquently when Mr. Gravelle asked you the question? Isn't that a better approach?
5:15 p.m.
Director of Canadian Affairs, United Association Canada, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada
We would love to see an energy policy whereby you could force the big oil companies to build a refinery around.... Say, if they had three mines, they would have to have one refinery; if they have two mines, they would have to have an upgrader. I don't know; that's your bailiwick, not mine.
But if we say right now that we're just going to put the industry on hold while we build a refinery, I would point out that it would take you 10 or 12 years to build a new refinery. The engineering alone would take you four or five years, and then there's the environmental stuff.
Right now what we need is to move some bitumen, and then we have to get our heads around more upgrading, for sure. I don't know whether refining is in the cards, but certainly upgrading is in the cards, and there's basically as much work for us in an upgrader as there is in a refinery.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Thank you.
I'm going to pass my speaking time over to Ms. Liu.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Laurin Liu NDP Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you.
I would like to thank our witnesses for being here today.
Let's talk a little bit about Montreal's history. As we know, Montreal was once the biggest refining hub in Canada. Mr. Brunelle, that's a fact that you surely acknowledge.
A petrochemical industry developed around this hub and integrated reasonably well. When I speak to scientists in Montreal, I notice that they think promoting this industry is a very good thing. However, at the beginning of the 1980s, the industry was in a major decline.
Can you tell us what the reasons were for this decline?
5:15 p.m.
President, Montreal-East Industrial Association
That's a subject we could talk about for some time. We know, for example, and the figures support it, that at the beginning of the 1970s there were about 40 refineries in Canada, and now only about 19 are left. One of them will probably disappear soon. As for refinery capacity, it has not really diminished. The players who have remained are therefore better integrated.
Obviously, all of the environmental rules have been positive. As I was in east Montreal during the 1970s and 1980s, I can tell you that air quality was a serious problem. That's not the case anymore, and it's not simply because the refineries have disappeared. The players that remain today are on the leading edge of technology and apply excellent environmental measures. They can compete with all the other refineries that are still on the market.
We can talk about the past, but what is important to know is that we still have a good industrial framework in the east which still allows for development. The key to success is to have options in terms of raw material.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Laurin Liu NDP Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
You announced the publication of a study done in collaboration with the Polytechnic School. It deals with the petrochemical industry.
Could you give us an idea of the content?
5:20 p.m.
President, Montreal-East Industrial Association
We are very enthusiastic about this study, which we are conducting with Montreal's Polytechnic School. Thank you for mentioning it. It was in the documents that we submitted to you.
Obviously, there is a great deal of talk about a decline, but in Montreal East, there's a large industrial framework and many sites. With Montreal's Polytechnic School, we consider the industrial framework available to us and what is being done elsewhere throughout the world in the field of industrial ecology. From there, we consider technologies that will allow us in 5, 10 or 20 years to encourage investors to become stakeholders in this industrial framework. We want to ensure that, in the case of Montreal East, there's talk of gains rather than declines. That's why we are so enthusiastic about the subject of this study that we are completing. Once it is done, it would be our pleasure to come to talk to you about it.