Natural Resources Committee on May 29th, 2014

[Serge Dupont]

Again, you will not find a line item in the main estimates. We do have some moneys in the department allocated to the clean energy dialogue. I couldn't give you the number at our fingertips. It's not a large amount of money. Off the top of my head it would be in the range perhaps of $5 million or so.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay. Thanks.

As my colleagues have mentioned, our committee previously did a study of potential assistance from Canada for Ukraine. It was revealed the minister had taken several trips to Europe, I think one to Poland and one to Germany, where he had brought along representatives from the oil and gas sector, but nobody from the renewable or energy efficiency sector.

Can you tell us who makes the decisions on who goes along on those delegations? Is it the department?

[Serge Dupont]

There is consultation between the minister's office and the department. It would also depend on the interests expressed by the host country. Our mission in the host country will have conversations and consultations with the host country and report back. Invitations will be sent to different parties. Not everybody who is invited comes, and so the representation at the end of the day may not always be the one we started with, but there's a range of consultations and interest on the part of the host country and of our industry here.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I note the main estimates show a decrease of $4.5 million in advertising, which seems pitiful, given the fact the department spent hundreds of millions on advertising in the last year.

Can you tell me the total amount budgeted for advertising by this department?

[Serge Dupont]

Yes, I can. Just give me a second. I would, however, wish to clarify that there certainly has not been...did I hear hundreds of millions?

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

That is my understanding.

[Serge Dupont]

There seems to be perhaps...or tens even....

Essentially, what is—

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

One hundred million plus. How about that?

[Serge Dupont]

Certainly not in this department and not for this portfolio.

Currently $30 million is contemplated within a two-year envelope, and this is not advertising. I should come back to that. Thirty million dollars was allocated for a two-year international stakeholder engagement and outreach campaign. Of that, $22,750,000 will be allocated to advertising expenditures, that is international advertising in Europe, the United States, and other markets to promote Canada's responsible resource development—

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Does that include promoting our energy efficiency expertise?

[Serge Dupont]

It broadly promotes Canada's expertise in the energy sector, the resources we can bring to bear, the capabilities, the know-how, and the fact that Canada is a responsible supplier of natural resources and energy.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Then the answer is no. My specific question is whether the advertising plan and budget include promoting energy efficiency expertise and technology from Canada.

[Serge Dupont]

No, it does not. It does not promote any specific industry. It promotes Canada as a responsible supplier of energy.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Is there anything in these main estimates that specifically allocates funds for providing clean energy to aboriginal or isolated communities? Would I find that in the clean energy fund? Do I find that in the energy R and D? Where would I find that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Deputy Minister, could you give a very brief answer, please?

[Serge Dupont]

Sure. Again, you would not find the line item. Under our energy innovation programs we have funded a number of initiatives, for example, to see how one could utilize hydrogen technology and storage to facilitate wind energy deployment in isolated communities so that there's better utilization of wind energy.

We have looked at other different technologies that would apply in the north and in remote communities under.... The minister mentioned 280 projects. A number of those would have been germane to the needs of remote communities, but there would not be a line item for aboriginal or remote communities with regard to clean energy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Duncan.

We go now to Mr. Leef, for up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Minister mentioned in his opening address the geomapping program. I'm just wondering if you'd have an opportunity to talk about how the geomapping program will support the mining and energy sector, with particular emphasis on what it will do for the northern regions of Canada.

[Serge Dupont]

Essentially what the geomapping program does is provide the first layer of exploration, the basic information about the geology that then allows the industry to target its efforts where, based on that information, they see that there may be promise to find this or that type of mineral. We do that through field projects. We actually have teams of geologists, including graduate students, for example, out in the field analyzing the geology with their eyes and the chisel and so forth—that is still part of it—as well as through remote sensing, including satellite data, airborne surveys.

Our scientists then integrate that information and publish the equivalent of maps and geological information. We do that openly. What I mean by that is that we put it on the website, and any firm, any outside party, can come in and look at that information and decide where they want to target their investments.

We also are active in conferences; over a period of five years we've provided 800 technical information sessions. We therefore interact as well with industry in open fora, such as conferences and so forth, in Canada and abroad.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Anecdotally I've heard a lot of support for the geomapping program. I was mentioning to the Minister in the opening address that I was at the gold show in the Yukon. It's quite a large industry gathering there. Of course, when we talk about these things, they're supportive and love these programs.

Is there a way that you're able to determine the metrics of site visits to the website or a way of measuring those anecdotal comments that come in at big mining conferences such as PDAC, or at other locations?

[Serge Dupont]

That's a good question. We've released, for example over the five-year period, 840 open files. It's really providing information. We have a rule of thumb in the department that for every dollar we put into GEM, there's going to be $5 of exploration expenditures that actually are going to flow over time, and about $20 at the end of the day of actual mining development expenditures, because of course, when the development actually starts, that really expands.

So those are the rules of thumb that we use, and we certainly do find that there is high demand, that as soon as that information is out there, there's very rapid pickup. I couldn't give you the number of clicks and so forth, but we find heavy traffic right away. In other words, the industry out there is going to be really quick at checking what the new information is and how valuable it is, and then they can decide on and target their interventions.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

That's an interesting figure. Even just by rule of thumb, it's a great story for us that a dollar's worth of investment gets a $5 return. I think that more than qualifies the expenditure, not just the advertising aspect of it, but the educational input of those sorts of programs.

Are there similar programs under the main estimates now that mirror or are close to the geomapping program that demonstrate similar returns, and if so, what would those be?

[Serge Dupont]

I don't have similar numbers at my fingertips, but the targeted geoscience initiative is one that we also collaborate on with the provinces. It's a bit of an analog of GEM, where we work with the provinces. And it gets immediate leverage, because they also put money then, even before we count the follow-on expenditures by the industry.

We try, for all of our innovation projects, to look at how we're leveraging private sector investment. We don't just spend $100 in our labs without trying to have partners and ensuring that if we're going to put $100, there's a partner that's going to come in and make a contribution. In some cases, for example the moneys that have been advanced in respect of carbon capture and storage—leveraged with the Province of Alberta and leveraged with the industry—have been multiplied manyfold in terms of the federal contribution.

So that is a constant gauge for us to ensure that the dollars that are spent by the department actually respond to a real need and a real opportunity, because there's often nothing better than the cold cash on the other side to measure that there is that need, that opportunity that others are actually prepared to invest into.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you.

[Serge Dupont]

That's true, for example, for Sustainable, Development Technology Canada, which is funded in here. We'll provide up to a maximum of 35% of a grant for the value of a project. The other 65% has to come from investors who are actually willing to take the risk.