Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 20th, 2013

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much, Ms. Block.

Mr. Julian, you have a bit more than eight minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm glad that all of you are joining us from Calgary. I will say that we're very sorry the Stampeders lost last week. I was cheering for the Stampeders after the Lions went out. Now I'll have to cheer for the Roughriders.

Welcome and thank you for being with us.

I want to start off by asking all four of you something, because the board posting is very clear:

The principal role of Board Members is to make independent decisions in the Canadian public interest in the area of energy regulation.

That's from the actual posting from the NEB.

As you know, we have had in last year's budget a major shift in how the NEB operates. Now there is a cabinet override. That cabinet override allows the federal government to override the NEB decisions.

I want to ask each one of you, do you not feel that having that cabinet override impacts on the independent decisions that are supposed to be taken by the NEB in the area of energy regulation?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Julian, I'm going to rule that question out of order, and here is the reason. As I stated at the start, we're here to look at the qualifications and the competence of the members. You're asking about a government policy, and it is not the role of the members of the committee to determine or to even comment on government policy as such.

Please focus your questions on their qualifications and competence. I don't know whether you can reword that question so that it would work, but I can't think of a way.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Chair, it does say that the principal role is to make independent decisions, so the question is very simple. Given the very good panel that we have in front of us, do these members, who have good qualifications in terms of energy policy, feel that this has been impacted by the budget bill that allows cabinet override?

That certainly is a very valid question. I don't see any difficulty at all in asking competent individuals a question that's directly related to their primary role on the NEB.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

It would be an appropriate question if they were here as witnesses dealing with an issue that this applied to, but we're here today just to ask questions about the individuals' qualifications and competence, and that question does not, Mr. Julian.

Perhaps you could ask a question that really does drill down and ask for information on qualifications and competence. That's the purpose of the meeting today.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Well, Mr. Chair, again I will say, and I'll rephrase it so that you can't cut me off, that it's—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Ms. Block, on a point of order.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, according to page 1049 of O'Brien and Bosc, a decision made by the chair is not debatable.

I believe the chair has made a decision, ruled your line of questioning out of order, and indicated that he'd like you to choose a different one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much, Ms. Block. I do appreciate that.

I just thought I'd again point out to Mr. Julian that the question isn't within the scope of the questioning we have here at this committee meeting today, which deals with qualifications and competence.

You're certainly welcome to ask members of the government, ministers or whoever, that question if they are witnesses before this committee sometime in the future, but it does not apply to this meeting today. It is not in order for this meeting today because it doesn't deal with the qualifications or competence of the appointees.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, but this is absurd. When we're talking about the principal role of board members, then their being questioned on that principal role and how they feel it's impacted is absolutely in order, and you're well aware of that, sir.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I will ask again, Mr. Chair, to these appointees—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Zimmer, on a point of order.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

I don't know how it can be made any clearer, Mr. Julian. We're dealing with the qualifications of the board members. That's why they're here today, and you know that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

A point of order comes through the chair.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Yes. Sorry, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

If you want to make a point of order, please direct it to me. Then I will ask Mr. Julian to carry on within the parameters of this meeting.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to reiterate what was already said about the purpose of this meeting today, which is to talk about the qualifications of the board members specifically and exclusively. That, I think, is fairly clear, and I think you have made that clear as well. I would appreciate that it be taken into effect.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer. That is correct, and I think Mr. Julian knows that.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Julian, with questioning dealing with the qualifications and competence of these members.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

According to their skills and competence, how do the changes to the NEB structure, in the budget bill of last year, impact on the independence of the NEB?

I'm asking all four members.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

It's getting closer, Mr. Julian, but—

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It's close enough, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Just ask your question again, Mr. Julian. I want to hear it again.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

How do the changes brought about in the budget bill last year impact on the independence—

Sorry. I apologize to our members. This is a little comical, but this is how Ottawa functions sometimes.

How does that have an impact on the independence of the National Energy Board?