Natural Resources Committee on March 10th, 2015

[Joe Hanlon]

To give the example in regard to pellets, this is where the time-consuming part comes into play.

We actually were involved in the wood pellets with Atikokan in regard to Great North Bio Energy, which had actually started it. Unfortunately, they sold to Rentech, so we were left to the wayside, but we are still working with Great North Bio Energy and Whitesand First Nation. When we were originally looking at it, we were going to have three pellet plants in northern Ontario: in Atikokan, in Whitesand, and in our communities. Then what took place is now it's separated. We believe that the volume...we have 60,000 tonnes, and the other community has 60,000. That's 120,000. You can go out and negotiate better deals and try to get more of a commitment.

Again, it goes back to timing. We could have been involved in a different way.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I'd like Mayor Brown to answer if he could, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Go ahead briefly, please.

[Dennis Brown]

In terms of the story that Joe was talking about with that mill in Atikokan, what happened was that it was a particleboard plant and in 2008 with the downturn in the economy, it went bankrupt. The town took a chance; we took it over and sold it to a gentleman who was a great businessman in Thunder Bay, but he had to turn around and sell it because he was spending his own money and the banks wouldn't give him the money to move forward on upgrading it to a pelletizing plant because the banks weren't convinced that forestry was good.

That's why that was a problem. That's why we had to sell it to an American firm, Rentech, that's operating now. Otherwise, it would probably still be going in the partnership that Joe was talking about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

We go to the five-minute round now, starting with Ms. Crockatt, followed by Mr. Trost and then Mr. Caron.

Go ahead please, Ms. Crockatt, for up to five minutes.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'm wondering if we have our gentlemen on the speakers back with us yet or not.

Mr. Labbé, can you hear?

No, we're not able to chat with them. We hope to get them reconnected with us.

I'll go to Mr. Brown.

I think my colleague was asking you a question I wanted to follow up on and give you an opportunity to finish speaking about. By the way, I see that you've been on the Atikokan council for over 30 years and that “Atikokan” is Ojibwa for “caribou bones”. Is that right?

You started talking about the caribou.

Can you tell us what your concern is there? Just be a bit more full in your description of what the issue is that you're dealing with, please.

[Dennis Brown]

Both the federal and the provincial governments have come out with studies, and they're suggesting that if some more land isn't set aside for the caribou, then the caribou will suffer.

The problem with that is, when you take the land away, that's wood, part of the boreal forest. That's what the companies rely on. They need a wood supply, a predictable, affordable, reliable wood supply so they can operate. Companies and business people need certainty, and we have to have that.

In the boreal forest, I think 44% of it cannot be harvested now. It's set aside. There's only about 2% that's being harvested. Surely there's enough land there set aside for the caribou and there still can be enough wood supply for the companies to operate.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Is your view that there is more land being set aside than is required? Could you clarify? I don't want to put words in your mouth. What is your view with regard to the future of the caribou?

[Dennis Brown]

Like the item that I referred to earlier, and I'll leave you a copy of it, I don't think it's based on sound science. This is just one example, but we hear that quite a lot in the the northwest. Quite often where the wood has been cut and harvested, the caribou are present. You see the caribou there. But there are a lot of people, on the other hand, who say if you start harvesting in this area, it will destroy the land for the caribou, that they won't be able to exist. It's not based on scientific information. That's the first step. I think there has to be certainty on that.

We need the jobs and we need the economy, but we also need to look after the environment. I think there's a way of doing both with all the land that we have, especially in the boreal forest that goes from the Pacific coast almost to Quebec.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Do you think changes need to be made to SARA, and if so, what are you recommending?

[Dennis Brown]

If I were in the federal government, I'd be looking very closely at those studies, and I'd certainly do everything I could to not set aside more land for the caribou at the expense of jobs for the forestry companies. The forestry companies are providing the jobs in our communities, and we need those jobs.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hanlon, I wonder if you could talk about what federal funding you've received and what specifically it has done, what you feel has worked, and what you would like to see. I'm looking here for specifics so that we can have some direction on what is helping you.

[Joe Hanlon]

We submitted an application with NRCan in the AFI process, the aboriginal forest initiative. We were successful in getting funding in regard to that to get our class 30 and our business plan done.

Now we've actually reapplied, and we've also applied to FedNor and to the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corporation. What we're trying to do is complete our class 20 and our class 10.

The unfortunate part is that there are delays. We don't mind. We'll go through the application process. It's time-consuming. The fiscal year could be different for this funder versus that funder. That's where the difficulty is again. We'll manoeuver our way through it, but what we're trying to say here is that if we want to speed up the process and get in on the economic opportunities for first nations, let's develop a process so that we don't lose the momentum. That's what we're looking at.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Are you finished, or did you have something else to add?

[Joe Hanlon]

If you don't mind, I just want to say with regard to the caribou that I started working the bush when I was 17 years old. I'm a licensed mechanic. I've never seen a caribou all the years I was there. None of my co-workers has ever seen one.

What seems to be happening now is that somebody spotted a caribou in these parts. They're up north; we understand that. But for some reason a couple of caribou came down here. I've even heard, with regard to first nations communities, that now.... We're trying to take away forests, but we're also taking away the moose population by trying to do this. We're saying they've lived up north for all those years, let them stay there. Let us keep our jobs; let us keep our moose, and continue on.

I've never seen a caribou in our region.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Was there anything else you wanted to add?

[Dennis Brown]

I just wanted to pass out this information about the caribou.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Do I have time for any more questions, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

No, you do not. I'm glad you reminded me that you don't.

Thank you, Ms. Crockatt.

Mr. Trost, for up to five minutes, followed by Monsieur Caron, and Ms. Davidson.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

I take it, Mr. Chair, that our telephone lines to Quebec still don't work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Can you gentlemen hear us yet?

I think you're right, Mr. Trost.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

We'll put it on the record that we would like to ask them questions. We like asking the people here questions too, but we'll work with what we have.

One of the reasons we've set up the panels the way we have is to also get an understanding of regional uniqueness and regional differences. You gentlemen are basically representatives of northern Ontario today, not just of your individual communities. Is there anything in particular this committee should know about the forestry industry in northern Ontario, how it differs from the rest of the country, or are your needs practically identical to what we would find in B.C. and New Brunswick? I suspect not, but what would be unique about northern Ontario and the region you represent?

[Joe Hanlon]

One of the biggest things is poplar, hardwood. You go in and you clear out the softwood. This has been going on for years. When we used to go in to harvest the softwood, the hardwood would stay standing. Now poplar has no protection. The wind comes in and blows it over, and it's a big waste. You have companies going in, whether they're pulp mills or sawmills, and they're still harvesting the softwood, but the hardwood to this day remains. It's an underutilized species. That's one of our opportunities here with this pellet plant. We are in the process of getting the hardwood allocations so we can start utilizing that fibre. The longer that takes, the more fibre gets wasted and basically blown down. Some companies just cut it down and leave it there, and there's no use for it.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

That's an interesting point, something I would have never thought of. My forestry experience is in tree planting in B.C. From the experience you two gentlemen have and the connections—I know neither of you is a researcher—is the government or industry looking at specific research to develop the hardwood? Is the hardwood being looked at only for pellets or is research being done on using it for value-added products? Is that something we should put in our recommendations, or is it already being done?

[Dennis Brown]

I know a few years back we were looking at a veneer plant in Atikokan, and in the end we didn't make much headway because there seemed to be very little appetite in Canada for that at that particular time. I know our economic development officer was dealing with somebody, I think out in the state of Washington, and I think that opportunity might still be there if there were some more impetus to try to move forward in that regard.

I don't know if Joe has a comment on that.