Evidence of meeting #12 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was language.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
I think the important thing is to have programs that offer concrete services. At the beginning of the summer, we announced $500,000 for one year for the City of Ottawa to help it with its efforts to provide services in French in the national capital.
Could you tell us about how important you think it is for the official language minority communities to have access to services in their language?
9:40 a.m.
As an Individual
I think that it is very important. To some extent, the commissioner's role as liaison between the minority communities and the government amounts to support for minority communities so that they can be heard. The commissioner's role is also to try to act as a link between you, the members of Parliament, the minority communities and the government.
As I said, I was born in Ottawa. I am very aware that as the national capital, Ottawa has an additional responsibility, particularly as regards language. And I am sometimes astounded to see that as far as language goes, Ottawa is not very welcoming to francophones. I think that it is a tradition in Ottawa to be resistant to francophones' demands. I think that businesses in the capital should realize that in strictly commercial terms, there is a market of francophones who are unilingual or much more comfortable in French in this city.
People should not find themselves in a unilingual city, to all intents and purposes, once they leave Parliament Hill. As a resident of Ottawa, I sometimes find it ridiculous that Ottawa does not offer a more welcoming face to francophones.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon
Thank you, Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Fraser.
We will begin our second round with Mr. D'Amours.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to thank you, Mr. Fraser, for appearing before the committee this morning.
I understand the problems you have raised. It is quite a sensitive matter for you to make comments, given that the current Commissioner of Official Languages is still in her position.
However, I would like you to answer this question. As you no doubt know, it has not been easy for minorities to improve their situation over the years. I am referring to francophones outside Quebec, but also to anglophones in Quebec. In fact, there are certain parts of rural Quebec where many anglophones live. Things are not easy for those people. I am not talking about Montreal here, but about other regions.
Over the years, the communities have managed to achieve certain things, and this is how they have been able to improve their lives as minorities. I use the word “minorities”, because that is in fact what they are.
Do you think that a weakening of their achievements jeopardizes the continuous advancement of the two official language minority communities?
9:45 a.m.
As an Individual
Of course, a loss is a loss. Personally, I spent 10 years in Quebec as a member of the anglophone community — three years in Montreal and seven in Quebec City. In Quebec City I noticed that the needs of the anglophone minority community changed over time. Even in Montreal, the community there is aging. And the needs of a community of seniors are very different from those of a young, active community. In many cases, people 65 and older who have retired also suddenly have significant needs for health care and social services, which they never had when they were working. So then they feel more vulnerable.
I do not think we can say that the needs that appear at certain times will always remain the same. So we cannot view the needs of a minority community as a static phenomenon. They change with the demographic changes in the community. Minority communities will always have certain needs, but they will change over time.
There are also problems associated with isolated communities. These have nothing to do with language, but they must be taken into account. Sometimes schools close, not because of linguistic prejudice, but because there are no school-age children. I think that schools become a particularly important institution for minority language communities. Yes, I am very aware of the needs of minority communities, since I was part of such a minority when my children were young.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
I appreciate your comments very much, Mr. Fraser. It is true that the situation is not static, it evolves over time. Citizens move from one region to another, and that can have some impact on the situation. Since things are not static, people have to be able to continue to develop and progress, but ways must also be found to offer minorities the services to which they are entitled.
Let us take the example of schools in the Atlantic region, in Nova Scotia, or the example of the Montfort Hospital, here in the Ottawa region. You spoke about demographic change. If a particular region suddenly has enough people to open a school, that does not necessarily mean that the community will have the resources that it needs to defend its rights.
Do you think that funding cuts to these communities will mean that their future will be less rosy than it is at the moment? Things are not easy as it is. These people no longer have the resources they need, precisely because their situation is constantly evolving.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
9:50 a.m.
As an Individual
I have made note of your concerns, but I do not want to say things on the second round that I avoided saying on the first round. I share your concerns, and I will look into these matters carefully.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
I am very pleased that you agree with me on this, Mr. Fraser.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
First, Mr. Fraser, I would like to thank you for appearing before the committee today. I would like to raise a very specific matter with you.
I have been a lawyer in Quebec for over 33 years, and I still have an office there. At the moment, the issue of language in the courts is a problem we often have to deal with. As you know, even though the people on the other side of the table do not believe it, our government has made a firm commitment on official languages, and I will tell you why.
On June 22 of this year, I supported a bill that is very important, particularly for people accused of a crime. In the future, the judge and the jury will have to understand the official language of the accused. Heaven knows we have had problems in this regard in both English and French, depending where the charge was laid. We have decided to change the approach regarding this most fundamental right—the right of an accused to be tried in his or her own language. When there is a judge and a jury, this is an important factor. People familiar with the field know that, usually, serious indictable offences are involved—homicide or worse. People facing a sentence of 25 years in prison should know that the jury properly understood their defence. It is perhaps the most important point. I understand that health and safety are important, but sentencing people to 25 years in prison without knowing whether the jury or even the judge understood everything correctly is absolutely terrifying.
On June 22 of this year, our government decided to introduce an amendment to the Criminal Code of Canada. This is a subject I would like to raise with you. Are you familiar with this bill? I think the right to be tried in one's own language is a fundamental right. The Conservative government decided to table a bill to do just that.
Do you feel comfortable with the fact that for the 100 years they were in power, these people did not even claim that there would be a judge or a jury that spoke the language of the accused? There have been some serious cases in Manitoba and in Quebec that resulted from the fact that the jury did not speak the language of the accused. Manitobans know all about this. Those people were in power for 100 years, and this is the first time there has been such an important change in this area. This is just a subsection of the code, but it will change many things for people who are charged with an offence when they are travelling across this country. They will at least have the right to a trial in their own language.
So I would like to know whether you are familiar with this bill and, if so, what you think about it.
9:55 a.m.
As an Individual
No, I was not familiar with this bill. So I cannot comment on it in detail. However, what I can say is what I said earlier to another member: if people feel vulnerable once they reach a certain age and have to deal with the health care system, clearly it is also true that people who are accused are in an extremely vulnerable situation.
I recently attended a convention of the Association des juristes d'expression française de l'Ontario where an award was given to Chief Justice Roy McMurtry for his efforts to ensure that the justice system in Ontario functions in both languages. Before that change, people thought it was impossible for the system to adjust to these needs. Changes had to be made in the administrative structure of the justice system in Ontario, and from what I have heard and the tributes paid to Mr. McMurtry, the system is working quite well and is providing services in both languages.
I do think this is a very important right. While the right of citizens to be served by the government in their own language is important, it is even more important for—
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
9:55 a.m.
Bloc
Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
I would like to congratulate you on your appointment, Mr. Fraser. I am delighted to see your affection for and understanding of Quebec. I am very pleased to know that I may have an opportunity to speak to you more often in the weeks ahead.
My first battles as a teenager had to do with French in Quebec. We know how hard it is to ensure that a language will survive. So I can understand francophones living in minority situation.
You must encourage linguistic equality in Canada. I am wondering how we can do that if we do not start by recognizing that French, one of the two official languages in North America and Canada, is threatened.
Should our attitude not be that there is one language that is fragile, and that our efforts should be focused first and foremost on French?
I would also like to hear what you have to say about the situation of anglophones in Quebec as compared to that of francophone communities outside Quebec. I think the two situations are very different, and that consequently the approaches taken should be very different as well.
10 a.m.
As an Individual
Of course, I want to answer your second question first.
As an anglophone in Quebec, I have never felt the frustration that others have felt. The only thing that frustrated me a bit was this mantra repeated by the francophone majority, saying that Quebec's anglophone institutions hold their existence to its generosity. Historically, for obvious reasons that I need not repeat, these institutions were built, created and maintained by the anglophone community.
I recently watched a biography of René Lévesque on television, and I was glad to see how much they emphasized the point that when the Parti Quebecois was young, Mr. Lévesque defended the anglophone educational system in Quebec. He never hesitated to risk his own career in order to defend the rights of the anglophone minority.
It is true that when the situation of the anglophone minority in Quebec is compared to that of minorities in other parts of Canada, comparisons are frequently drawn between Montreal and Sudbury, or Montreal and Saint-Boniface. I think that such comparisons are not appropriate. With 600,000 people, there can be a certain degree of economic independence. Communities can fund their own projects; and this community has obvious economic strengths. We cannot expect minority communities outside Quebec to have the same economic or social momentum that Montreal's anglophone minority has.
But these comparisons are more appropriate in cases like Quebec City or Sherbrooke. When I lived in Quebec City, there were very good schools for my children. One of my sons received his entire education in French and another, for various reasons, benefited from Quebec's anglophone schools. We were very happy with this. Our minority community had the resources it needed in Quebec City. Some of my anglophone acquaintances have been living in Quebec for generations and they are still living there and returning there. They have resources in health care, education, plus a newspaper and a television station. I think that this is the kind of comparison we should draw when analyzing the needs of minority communities. Montreal is often used to evaluate the anglophone minority situation in Quebec. I do not think that this is appropriate.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
My question is a follow-up on Ms. Brunelle's question. How can we ensure the survival of francophone minorities outside Quebec? You mentioned Saint-Boniface. I live in Victoria, with a francophone population of about 1,400. As you say, we do not have any economic momentum.
What kind of role do you think the federal government should play to help foster these communities? For instance, my community had to fight to get a community radio station. It had a very hard time and very little help. Could the federal government take any steps to make life easier for francophones outside Quebec?
Secondly, what would be the first thing you would do to improve the survival of these francophone minorities?
10:05 a.m.
As an Individual
When I attended this committee in June as a journalist, I heard a presentation by Minister Josée Verner, where she spoke of an action plan. As a journalist, I asked her some questions about this. First, I asked her whether this action plan was alive and well, and she answered that she was studying it to see if it could be improved. Then I asked her whether this action plan was meant as a minimum. She answered that in fact, the action plan was a minimum.
I was reassured by this as I looked into the file because the action plan covers an entire set of problems faced by minorities, by mixed marriages, and even includes the assimilation problems of francophone minorities. If my appointment is confirmed, this is one of the basic issues I want to deal with. I am not ready to announce the first step of my plan, but I want to listen to the communities in order to identify the most important measures and to find out what our government intends to do in the future, following the road map announced by Ms. Verner last spring.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
Let me carry on in the same vein. Mr. Lemieux just mentioned an initiative for attracting francophones. But they should not be encouraged to come and then left to their own devices. This happens all too often. You mentioned language as a social element, and this is what I want to know regarding the government action plan. This plan has to be funded, and the cutting of resources is not the way to go about it. Earlier, someone mentioned a program for young children, which would really give a concrete opportunity for francophones to encourage and help their children to learn French in a social setting. So let me enquire a bit further about the action plan.
How shall we go about implementing this fine legislation in the field, for the benefit of minorities?
10:10 a.m.
As an Individual
What I want to know before giving a clear answer is the connection between the problems and programs that you have identified, and the initiatives that Mr. Lemieux recently mentioned. I do not know whether the government's statements have anything to do with your concerns.
But there is one thing I would like to say. Forty years ago, Premier Jean Lesage travelled to the west. In the speech that he made before the Canadian Club in every city, he said that if an engineer from Vancouver moves to Montreal, he does not lose his culture nor does he lose any services, but if an engineer is transferred or promoted from Montreal to Vancouver, he has to choose between, on the one hand, his career, and the culture and language of his children on the other hand.
Forty years later, if a manager from Montreal is faced with this choice, he has resources that could not even have been imagined in the past. There is Radio-Canada with its radio and television stations, there are French schools and community centres. Minority communities are much more active and have instruments that they did not have before. Now we have legislation that did not exist at the time and could not even be imagined back then.
If we take into account the problems that still exist, I think that we should also recognize the fact that we have made some headway.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon
Thank you, Mr. Fraser. I am sorry to interrupt you.
Let us start our third round of questions, with five minutes per question. Mr. Murphy has the floor.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome to the committee, Mr. Fraser. I wish you all the best in your new position.
First let me note that I come from Acadie, from Moncton, and that I am an anglophone. When I arrived in Ottawa, I was astonished to see that the level of bilingualism found here was less than what we have in Moncton. I find this disturbing, because this is, after all, the national capital.
By the way, I would like to suggest that you encourage local politicians to adopt a bilingual policy. If it can be done in Moncton — and we all know about the impact of bilingualism on political life — it can be done in Ottawa, without a doubt. That was a comment, and not a question.
My question is about the impact of Bill S-3. I was not here at the time, but I know that the adoption of Bill S-3 was a very important event, not only because the Conservative Party decided, at the last moment, to adopt a position that is favourable to bilingualism, but also because this bill is very important for the quality of bilingual services everywhere in Canada.
Let me quote what you wrote when you were a journalist, because what journalists write is, as we all know, always true. Last December, you wrote the following in The Toronto Star:
S-3...requires the federal government to promote French-speaking minorities outside Quebec and the English minority in Quebec and gives them the right to go to court if the federal government doesn't take their interests into account.
This week we learned that the Court Challenges Program is about to be cancelled. As I prepared for this meeting, I remembered these words and I wondered whether the Court Challenges Program would deprive the public of a needed resource.
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
However, I am not ready to give you an answer now.
As I said previously, I do not want to minimize the importance of the commissioner's statement, but I have a whole set of questions. One of my questions is very similar to the one that you just put to me. At this stage, I am still dealing with questions and I have not gotten to the answers yet, but I am looking for them.