Official Languages Committee on Sept. 28th, 2006

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Have I any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

You have one minute.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Let me raise another issue that is very important for our region, namely immersion courses. In Moncton, we see a good model; we have immersion courses that are working well. However, this is something like a hockey game. Now, you can play hockey as a child, as a young boy, but there comes a time when you can only watch hockey games.

The same applies to immersion courses. Language training begins early in our province, but, as you already wrote, anglophones who have learned French end up by losing what they learned when they go to university. I would also like to encourage universities to implement a mandatory second language policy.

Have you any comments about this?

[Graham Fraser]

In my statement, I said that one of the things that need to be emphasized, trivial as it may seem, is the fact that French is a Canadian language. This is just a polite way of saying that anglophone universities often teach French as a foreign language. Since my book was published, I have often said that we have all that we need to make our language policy work, but now we have to put the elements together in the right way.

In my opinion, one of the elements in the system that is not working as it should is the fact the 300,000 students who took immersion courses, when they arrive at university, find out that French is being taught as a foreign language. This is, in fact, just a comment and I will continue repeating it and raising the issue.

On the other hand, none of us here are in charge of the curricula taught by universities and by primary and secondary schools. They are under provincial jurisdiction. I can only try to promote this issue. I will try to use persuasion, but neither I nor you can do very much about this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I am sorry but I have to leave for a press conference about another matter, because the Conservatives are keeping us busy, with all their budget cuts. Let me just say that the Liberal Party supports Mr. Fraser's appointment, and we want this to be put on the record.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez.

Ms. Barbot, you have the floor.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Mr. Fraser, you just talked about promotion. In my opinion, that should be one of the most important aspects of your mandate, especially since it may be easier to work on that when you first arrive. Your answers show that you have a vision of what bilingualism is and that your vision is anchored in reality. You say that the purpose of the Official Languages Act is to protect minorities, but many people are not aware of that. So I would like to see you promote that aspect.

Other francophone communities sometimes say that Quebec has abandoned them. They do not understand the extent to which Quebec was and still is in survival mode. In my view, our language promotion policies are not incompatible with the protection of francophone communities outside Quebec. So I would like to know how you plan to do that promotion.

[Graham Fraser]

There is no doubt that Quebec nationalism has meant that language concerns were more centred on Quebec and that there has been a shift from French-Canadian nationalism to Quebec nationalism. That is part of the changing dynamics in French Canada since the 1960s.

But I think that there are important ties being created, in part through the development of the Francophonie and agreements between Quebec and other provinces. If I am not mistaken, there is now an agreement—I have not seen the details—between Quebec and British Columbia regarding the use of both languages at the Olympic Games. I did not mention that in my opening remarks, but I will be following developments in that area closely to be sure that the Olympic Games respect Canada's linguistic duality.

As an anglophone who does not come from Quebec, I think that I have a certain advantage when it comes to promoting linguistic duality. People will have less of a tendency to say that I am defending my own turf. I have strong ideas about linguistic duality and I have managed to express them from Vancouver to Halifax. I have been surprised to see how much goodwill and support there are for that idea. I believe that there is no longer that sort of hostility that used to exist toward French.

I can also tell you that I do not perceive major partisan differences. There is a kind of consensus between the members of this committee that these questions are important. You are also promoting linguistic duality. I think that there is fertile ground now to promote these ideas and I will try to continue to do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you, Mr. Fraser, and thank you, Ms. Barbot.

We will go now to Ms. Boucher.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I would like to begin by congratulating you, Mr. Fraser, on your nomination. I think that this is positive for francophones and official languages. As a francophone from Quebec, I have come to understand Canada's linguistic duality since my arrival in Ottawa.

I have made a commitment, along with my government, to steadfastly defend francophones and our official languages. The Prime Minister is doing a great deal in that regard. He always starts his speeches in French, and our linguistic duality is very important to him. There is a feeling now that the two communities and the two languages can coexist.

You have in-depth knowledge of both communities. I find it wonderful to see that a true anglophone has taken the opportunity to learn French. You enriched your life with our difference. Yes, we are different, but we are all fighting for the same thing here. That is what is interesting.

I would like to mention the important initiatives that we have developed for education. Ms. Josée Verner has signed bilateral agreements in education with every province and territory for a total of $1 billion over four years. I think that this is very important. We know that the provinces and territories match the federal funding, so that means that $2 billion will be invested between now and 2009 for official languages alone.

There are concrete examples. For instance, Ms. Josée Verner announced in May that funding would be provided to schools and community centres in Fredericton and St. John, New Brunswick.

I would like your opinion about the importance of those kinds of measures, especially for our children's education.

[Graham Fraser]

As I have already said, I feel that education is extremely important. I am not going to get into talking about the importance of decisions regarding certain programs, and I am not in a position to assess the importance of various initiatives either. I am not saying this to play down the importance of these initiatives in any way. I think that the next commissioner should look at the implementation, operation and real impact of these initiatives, in order to see how the funding is allocated for English and French as a second language and for minority language education.

On that point, I think that there is a real need for increased cooperation between francophones and francophiles. I am very much aware as well of the threat to minority communities because of immersion. So we have to look carefully at how the funding is divided between minority schools and second language teaching. I know very well that there is a difference between the role that I used to play as a journalist, without necessarily having access to all the details of programs and their impact, and the responsibility that I will have if I am appointed commissioner. But I certainly do not want to underestimate in any way the impact of programs and initiatives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Mr. Fraser and Ms. Boucher, we have time for two more questions.

We will begin with the member for Saint-Boniface, Mr. Simard.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Mr. Fraser. I am pleased to support your nomination.

I have two short questions. First, I have not had the chance to read your book Sorry, I don't speak French, but I come from a province where I have often been told: “Sorry, I don't want you to speak French.”

Less than 25 years ago, the building of the Franco-Manitoban Society was burned down and the director and his family had their lives threatened. Twenty-five years is not so long ago!

But things have changed a great deal. There is more awareness now because of immersion programs and Canadian Parents for French, and so on. The reason I mention this is because I think that the Commissioner of Official Languages also has a role to play in raising that awareness.

We could have a commissioner who mainly sits and keeps half an eye on the government or one who goes around the country speaking to minority groups about their rights and to majority groups about the need to respect those rights and the importance of speaking both official languages.

In your role, are you limited to doing certain things, or do you have some leeway to promote official languages and not just stay here and monitor the government?

[Graham Fraser]

Yes, I have a lot of leeway to promote official languages. I find myself in an interesting situation now because, as an author, I have been invited to give a number of talks in the fall, which I accepted last spring, a long time before this process started.

I do not know when or how the process will end, but I have not cancelled those speaking engagements. So I will be speaking in Vancouver at a conference of immersion teachers, and to a translators' association. One of the things that I plan to do in the first year of my mandate, if I am appointed, is certainly to visit all regions of Canada, in order to meet people, talk to them about various issues, learn from and listen to groups, provincial authorities and academics.

One of the problems is that we are often not fully aware of what is being done in other parts of the country. I think that the commissioner has a role as a rapporteur, if I can put it that way. For example, people in Saint-Boniface do not necessarily know what is happening in Moncton. Despite all the efforts made by the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes du Canada, this is a big country. Not everyone is involved in these organizations. I hope to play a liaison role, not between minority communities and the government, but between the minority and majority communities in all regions of the country.

Something that struck me...

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

I would like to get in here, Mr. Chairman. How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

One and a half minute.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

I would like to go to my second question, if I may, Commissioner.

There is something that has always been a mystery for me. In the North American context and given the fragility of the French fact here, I have never understood why francophones outside Quebec and francophones in Quebec have not developed closer ties over the past 20 or 30 years. I find that surprising. We are just starting to see Quebec add to their own numbers the 2.6 million people who speak French, which includes one million francophones and 1.6 million francophiles.

In the research that you did for your book, did you discover why it has not been possible to have closer ties and a really solid relationship with Quebec?

[Graham Fraser]

At the time of the first referendum, I sought to know whether sovereignists were optimistic or pessimistic. Some told me that they were pessimistic because they were counting out francophones outside Quebec, and others told me that they were optimistic because they felt that Quebec could blossom as an independent country.

As a Canadian, I am naturally on the optimistic side. I believe that we can promote the rights and vitality of francophone communities not only in Quebec but also elsewhere in the country. I think that one very real aspect of Quebec nationalism has meant that French Canada has been seen as a dynamic that exists only within Quebec borders.

That perspective goes hand in hand with Quebec nationalism, a very important force within Quebec society. It does not mean that Quebec nationalists cannot be open to the world and to other francophone communities. In any case, Quebec nationalists have had their own special reasons to want to create a French society only within Quebec.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fraser.

This committee is the official languages committee, and we recognize both official languages. Because most of us are bilingual, we have a tendency to speak in French most of the time, and every once in a while it's refreshing to use both official languages.

So I will give our last question to the Conservative member of Parliament, Patrick Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Fraser, I would like to address the question of the importance of linguistic duality and official languages in Canada.

A recent survey by the office of the official languages commissioner suggested that support for bilingualism in Canada has gone from 56% three years ago to 72% today. You can see the success in this, for example, with immersion programs in Alberta and British Columbia, which had a stark increase in support, or summer language programs. I know I took some when I was a university student, and they've become increasingly popular.

What is your assessment of the progress of these different initiatives to promote the learning of a second language in Canada?

[Graham Fraser]

I think they're very important. I learned French myself because of a federal program that was designed to try to recruit future archeologists. After a summer of digging trenches and ending up finding an outhouse in the fields outside Fort Lennox, I did not pursue a career as an archeologist. I discovered that I was actually much more interested in Quebec than I was in archeology, and I spent the next two summers working on a similar student project in a mental hospital in the east end of Montreal. At the time, it was called l'Hôpital Saint-Jean-de-Dieu. It's now l'Hôpital Louis-Hippolyte-Lafontaine.

I think those exchanges, those projects, those programs that enable young Canadians to learn the other language, and to do so in the context of working in the other society, are extremely important. They changed my life.

I think one of the continuing challenges for immersion...I mean, I'm a big supporter. As a parent, I saw my sons go through immersion. As a result, I'm aware of the shortcomings as well as the strengths of immersion. I think one of the challenges for immersion is to actually connect the immersion program with a French-speaking society. There is always the problem that children are learning the provincial curriculum in translation as opposed to actually connecting with a French-speaking society. But I think immersion has flourished the way it has out of an enormous amount of devotion and conviction and hard work by parents, by teachers, by provincial governments, and by support through the official languages and education program, which has invested over the years. I think these initiatives are extremely important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you very much.

It's obvious, or it seems obvious to me, at least, Mr. Fraser, that you have the support of the members around this committee. It's my impression anyhow. I can't speak for every member. We certainly want to thank you for your time.

A decision will be made tomorrow. I hope that you will then become the Commissioner of Official Languages and that you will begin your duties right away.

We will suspend the meeting for two minutes and then resume in camera. Thank you.