Evidence of meeting #16 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you. I am lucky, it never happens to me. I should get at least 20 minutes...
Thank you Mr. Chairman and welcome all.
When looking at our health system, we consider how things are done for the francophones, the francophonie, etc. You are lucky, here in Ontario, because Montfort Hospital was able to use the Court Challenge Program; otherwise, they would have lost their case.
After dealing with research and the Montfort Hospital, I would like to know what is happening in Sudbury, in Ontario, because there is a large francophone population there. They have Laurentian University, Collège Boréal, other institutions, but what do they have by way of health services in French? I heard no mention of Sudbury, but you did discuss Northern Ontario. Everyone thinks that Northern Ontario means Sudbury, but it extends even further, to Hearst, Kapuskasing, Longlac.
Are you working with them on developing agreements in this region.
9:55 a.m.
Director, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario
I will begin. What you say is true. The Montfort case went a long way to protect French-language health services in Ontario. It is because of the four networks that we now have in Ontario, following the ruling in favour of Montfort Hospital that we now have legislation to create a new health care structure in Ontario, with a preamble dealing with services provided to francophones in all Ontario communities. The act also includes two very important clauses relating to the new structure. First, there will be a French-language provincial council to directly advise the Minister of Health and Long Term Care on the needs of francophones in Ontario. Member agencies will be represented by people with an expertise in health, management and clinical health. This 10-member provincial council will advise the minister who will also consult with the networks.
A second clause confirms the work done by the networks. Up until now, the eastern network was the only one to be recognized through a memorandum of understanding with the Minister of Health and Long Term Care. From now on, there will be planning groups in Ontario's regions, including the North. The northern region has its network; it will be recognized through upcoming regulations. Official regulations should be in force in about three months, but the network is already in the act. There is therefore also an official French-language health services planning group in Northern Ontario. It was set up two years ago, with a board of directors; it is an organization similar to ours, but less experienced because we have been operating for eight years now. The networks in all of Ontario's regions are working within a new structure known as the Local Health Integration Networks. That is the new provincial structure. There are 14 of these networks in the province, with four French-language services planning networks responsible for the planning of French-language services.
We hope that, with these new regulations, the government will take a closer look at the needs of francophones living in the northern, southern, eastern and western parts of the province, and that a needs assessment will be made so as to advise the minister. This new, official structure is designed to ensure that the services are provided.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Mr. Laflamme made quite an impression when he described the incentives as being a good deal. But Mr. Laflamme, you have to be careful when you say that, because within the Francophonie, bilingualism is expensive. It does cost money to provide these services and sometimes governments might think that the price is too high and use that excuse to provide nothing at all. As francophones, we have already paid the price. I like your way of doing things; it made us sit up and take notice. Bilingualism is expensive, but that is the price we have to pay. In some countries, people are fighting for religious freedom. Elsewhere, race is an issue. Here we want to live together peacefully. We want services in our own language. It is expensive, but there is no way around it.
When it comes to research or training that we would like to provide, French-speaking students don't always have access to learning materials in their language. So francophones are once again at a disadvantage. What would you suggest to provide francophones with the same advantages as anglophones?
For example, 62 per cent of francophones in New Brunswick are illiterate. That is unfortunate. Once again, the government wants to cut the budgets to literacy programs, but that is another story.
10 a.m.
Professor, Director of PhD Program - Population Health, University of Ottawa
Literacy is key; there was a seminar on that very issue last year. I think Alberta, for instance, has taken some steps in that direction. Being part of a minority francophone group has allowed me to discover my country. I have only been in Ottawa for five years and this is the first time that I find myself in a francophone minority setting. I come from Montreal.
It is essential to provide training in one's own language in order to ensure comprehension. That presents two problems. First, with respect to training, I agree that textbooks must also be available in French. When it comes to scientific research, that is another problem. We know that English is the language that is commonly spoken, and our own papers must often be published in that international language.
I would hasten to add that all bilingual or trilingual countries should promote the use of their languages, particularly since English has become the international language. Language should be as basic as universality and accessibility. That is why I suggest that we consider adding a sixth pillar to Canada's health act, mainly, services provided in both languages, particularly where numbers are lower and more dispersed. I think it is a basic value that must be promoted.
10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon
Thank you, Ms. Bouchard and Mr. Godin.
We are now going to go to Mr. Petit for the last question of this round.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Good morning, Ms. Bouchard, Ms. Robert, and Mr. Laflamme. This question may be for Ms. Robert and perhaps Mr. Laflamme. I'm not sure Ms. Bouchard is familiar with the subject I wish to raise.
I am from the province of Quebec, home of Canada's francophone majority. We, in the federal government, want to fix the problem of excessive wait times for health care. That is one of our five priorities. In Quebec, there have been some unique events: because of the difficulties we were having in providing timely care to patients in our hospitals, we sent some of them to the United States for cancer treatment. So they were sent to an English-speaking area.
Witnesses have told us, not so long ago, that when patients are fearing for their lives and they realize that the wait time is shorter for services in English — that is, to be treated in an English-speaking hospital rather than a French-speaking one — they choose the English-speaking one because their lives are at stake. The language issue suddenly becomes secondary. I'd like to know your position on that. After all, we have to provide funding to organizations like yours for them to be able to continue operating.
The Société Santé en français appeared before us. Its representatives impressed me because they brought up a large number of subjects. They told us about the work right there in the field. I do not know whether you are familiar with that organization. I see Ms. Bouchard indicating that she is. I would like to know whether you support its way of doing things, without getting into any criticism of that organization. Should we give money directly to organizations like that, in your opinion, or is there a need for a supervisory committee?
Perhaps Ms. Robert could answer, she talked about CLSCs a bit earlier. I sense that she has a lot of skill in the field of administration.
10:05 a.m.
Director, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario
A number of projects have been submitted to the Société Santé en français. The network chose 23 of them, including Mr. Laflamme's. I will let him tell you about that after. But I think that the Société Santé en français has solicited submissions all across Canada, through its 13 networks, in order to come up with primary health care projects, projects in the field, to improve the health of francophones in their region. Considering the amounts of money allocated to each project, the results go well beyond investment, because with minimal amounts, they managed to get expertise and projects that will be useful to the French-speaking population, like Mr. Laflamme's project. I think the money was well spent on those projects. It is important, for the good of francophones to gather expertise, and priority care increases with each new amount of money that is provided. So, to answer your question, I think you do have to keep funding organizations directly.
With small amounts of money, francophones are accomplishing great things. Of all of the projects that have been set up, including nine in the field in the eastern region — and I am sure that the same thing goes for other regions — the results have been very beneficial. That money was well spent, because the ideas were local ideas, the needs were identified locally, it was not national, it was not lofty thinking, the ideas were practical and were implemented in the field.
I think I will let Mr. Laflamme pick it up from here, because he knows what it means to do a lot with very little.
10:05 a.m.
Coordinator, Francoforme Project, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario
It always comes back to the good deal principle.
It is too bad Mr. Yvon Godin is not here, because I would like to provide an update on that. We received $200,000 for our project. We have been working with that amount for over a year: I am a physiotherapist, and that paid my salary for one year; we hired two nurses from the Alexandria health unit who both worked part time; there was also an administrative assistant, we had documents and our database translated. All that with $200,000.
10:05 a.m.
A voice
We will hire you in Quebec.
That is called fiscal responsibility. I managed the budget. When making any acquisition, I always asked myself whether it was a good deal, every time. We spent every last cent, there was nothing left on September 30. I am proud of that. We managed the money well and it was a good investment.
As for the Société santé en français, it played a huge role in this result. It is a very important organization. Do we need another organization to oversee it, to supervise the Société santé en français? Absolutely not. No, because the Société has already administered the funds for the PHCTF project, the Primary Health Care Transition Fund. It then acted proactively in choosing 23 projects from among the 71 PHCTF projects. Then, all that was left was for Treasury Board to meet with Health Canada to sign the agreements by April 1, 2006. The agreements were signed last week. A lot of money was lost because of that.
So, if the direct administration of those funds had been left to the SSF, we would have had our money for the project as of April 1st. Now, we have funding for four months, instead of one year, to continue the project, which is too bad.
10:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon
Excuse me, Mr. Petit, but your time is up.
Ms. Bouchard, you may comment briefly.
10:05 a.m.
Professor, Director of PhD Program - Population Health, University of Ottawa
Yes, the strategy of the Société santé en français is fabulous because with its networks, it reaches all across the country. There is an extraordinary mobilization. I go from group to group and it is quite fabulous. However, the money has to keep coming.
Of course, if we disperse and create new structures, we are going to waste our time and money. So, yes, effective structures need to be maintained. The Société santé en français has proven its worth and is fabulous. So I support that model, which is quite original, by the way, and very successful.
I would like to come back to the issue of specialized medical care, the case of francophones sent to the United States or who choose an English-speaking environment because the waiting lists are apparently shorter. I think Quebec has to define its priorities. In a context of limited resources, is it important to have a CHUM, the Centre hospitalier de l'Université de Montréal, and a McGill University Health Centre? I think the resources could be shared and provided in both languages, especially in Quebec. That said, let us move on.
The other important aspect is this regionalization effort. In Quebec, the CLSCs were set up 30 years ago. That is now being done in Ontario. It has been done in Manitoba. The idea is to be close to the public and to meet the needs. So let us encourage that.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon
Thank you.
We will now go to a five-minute round, beginning with Mr. Jean-Claude D'Amours.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'd like to thank all three of you for appearing before the committee this morning. I have a few questions. For the first, I'd like a relatively short answer.
Ms. Robert, you mentioned earlier the situation, when my colleague Raymond Simard asked the question about the training of professionals. You said, among other things, that Franco-Ontarians were lucky to have the Montfort Hospital to provide them with a certain number of professionals. You also mentioned that one of the challenges was retaining those people. I'm from New Brunswick, and we have the same challenge. I also think that it will probably remain a challenge for some years, even decades.
Take the Montfort Hospital, for example. If the hospital no longer existed today, for reasons we all know, would it be difficult to have access to a pool of professionals?
10:10 a.m.
Director, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario
The answer is yes.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
That's exactly what I wanted, a short answer. As for my second point, when I listen to you talk, I almost get the feeling that you have more support from the province of Ontario than you are able to get from the federal government. That may be an impression on various levels, but it's the kind of feeling I understand to a certain extent.
In relation to that, I'm a bit surprised because you advocate for all health care in French in Ontario. Looking at the plan of this committee, it could be said that there is even one member of the committee who is Conservative and Franco-Ontarian, but who does not advocate the same philosophy of support for official languages, as for the Court Challenges Program.
Had this program not been in place or restored after the cutbacks, Montfort would not exist. If Montfort did not exist, that would, as you answered earlier, have caused a problem. Today, we would be in a situation where your data base or pool of available professionals might have been affected. That's the situation in a province that appears to be, listening to you, proactive. I clearly heard you say that the province gives you substantial support. So, if that had not been the case, perhaps, to some extent, you wouldn't even be here today. You might like to comment on that.
10:10 a.m.
Director, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario
The Montfort decision was definitely very important in terms of the availability and continuation of health care in French for Franco-Ontarians. There is no doubt about that. I think the Montfort support group was fighting not just for Franco-Ontarians, but for all francophones in Canada. I think it's a very important decision because we have two official languages and it has to be equitable for francophones when it comes to health care.
Health is largely a matter of provincial jurisdiction, and to make any headway in this area, you need very solid provincial support. The people on the ground—in our case, Franco-Ontarians—have to be constantly there, in front of the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. That's how you get what you want, even without federal support. I think there's a lot of funding or the majority of funding that comes from the provincial government. I think that answers your question. I know there are changes and I don't want to get into a political debate about transfers of money, etc. It's important for the province to support the efforts made by the public. I would hope that in all of the other provinces, there would be the same kind of support from Health ministers.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
True, health comes mainly under provincial jurisdiction. The money is invested by that level of government. When you look at the situation, sometimes you have to equip yourself with tools in order to be able to do certain things. It's all well and good for the current government to say that it wants to comply with all existing legislation and behave properly in that respect, but without some financial and especially moral support to guarantee you some assistance or ability to defend your rights if necessary, the situation becomes problematic if the support comes up short. I understand that you don't want to get into a political debate, and I accept that, that's our job. But it does become, to some degree, a problem. If you have financial assistance on one hand, but you don't have support if, and I hope this doesn't happen, an Ontario minister decided to cut funding, there's a problem.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon
Excuse me, but the time is up. I think there will be no answer to that question. Mr. Lemieux, you have five minutes.
10:15 a.m.
Director, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario
With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say this.
I think the two official languages of Canada are important, and not just in health, but also in education. I am a firm believer, a native-born Franco-Ontarian and I believe it's very important.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Good morning. I'm very pleased to welcome you here as witnesses. You are members of organizations that give a good indication of the vitality in our part of Ontario. Your organization plays an important role for Franco-Ontarians. My riding is the riding of Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, just beside Ottawa. As you know, 65,000 Franco-Ontarians live there. So services in French are very important.
Mr. D'Amours tried to invent connections that don't actually exist. You try to promote services in French in health care, and we support your effort. I myself support your efforts.
I have a few questions. You worked on setting up a single-window in French in Renfrew. I'd like to know the details. Can you discuss the advantages? And do you intend to do the same in other places?
10:15 a.m.
Director, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario, French Language Health Services Network of Eastern Ontario
The single-window is very new, very recent. It was a project of the network in cooperation with community health organizations in Renfrew. Renfrew was part of the region that our network serves, and it was quite difficult, because the French-speaking population of Renfrew is not very big.
We brought together the organizations that wanted to serve the population. We had allies like the CCACs, the Community Care Access Centres, and we also had mental health allies, like Bernadette Wren, who heads a mental health organization. There were also other people at the table. The single-window needed to be consolidated and it had to work well, so that people would have a place to call and someone to talk to who could tell them where they could get adequate service in French.
Will that occur elsewhere? Yes, there will be a single-window for francophones in the Ottawa area too, and the same project will surely happen in other regions. This project was important because francophones want us to tell them immediately where they can be served in French. That was the goal.
I think access is one of the priorities of the new Champlain District Local Health Integration Network. Access to these services has to be fast; you shouldn't have to make 3,000 phone calls to get an answer. The single-window meets that need. Given that there are fewer points of service in French, the person will be referred, served in French and know where to go to get services in French. That will also facilitate active offer in establishments like the Renfrew Hospital and other services like the CCACs, where there will be services in French.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Do you work closely with the clinics as well? In our region, we have hospitals in Hawkesbury and Alexandria. You work with the hospitals regarding those that will be designated to offer services in French, but do you also work with clinics, places where doctors offer services together?