Official Languages Committee on Feb. 1st, 2007

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Guy Rodgers]

When I said that, I got the same sort of reaction at the summit, and suddenly, barriers were broken down and people said, yes, that's exactly the same reaction I've had. I've been sort of living this closeted anglophone life for many, many years, not wanting to make waves, and instead of standing up in a militant way, maybe it's just time to re-address the stereotypes and look at who is the real anglophone in the 21st century.

That's the context. Over the last two years, ELAN has been very successful in building bridges with francophone colleagues and in reaching out to anglophone artists in all of the disciplines.

There are just a couple of points that I would like to raise before the committee that you might want to question when I'm finished.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

A minute and a half.

[Guy Rodgers]

Good, there's plenty of time.

Everybody knows the PICLO agreement, which is IPOLC in English. We had it for two years, and it was largely through this IPOLC agreement that the funding was established between Canadian Heritage and Canada Council. They needed an oversight group to make sure the money was managed properly; they brought together people from the different disciplines, and it was because of that encountering of people in different disciplines, which had not happened before, that we decided maybe it was time to have this summit in 2004.

ELAN's been around for two years; we're just now starting to build some solid infrastructure, and this IPOLC agreement expires next year, so we would really like to recommend that it be extended for at least another three to four years.

In the film and television sector they're just now signing the first IPOLC agreement. Again, it's the same situation: it's almost going to be cancelled before it begins.

There is a second recommendation I'd like to make. When the support for official minority languages was structured, there were regional or provincial programs and there were national programs. To separate the small groups from the large groups in the national programs, in most cases there's a criterion for eligibility that says you have to be present in at least three provinces. That makes a lot of sense if you're francophone, but it doesn't make a lot of sense if you're anglophone.

We've actually had people say to us, “Well, are you present in three provinces or more?” We say, “Well, what other provinces can we be minority anglophones in?” We had a lot of trouble getting people to address this rule. I suspect that if we're going to include anglophones under the minority language provision, somebody should revisit that rule. When we went to get funding for our website, an exception was made, but we shouldn't have to do special pleading and lobbying just simply to be considered eligible for a program like that.

We know that in the francophone sector there have been a number of multipartite agreements. Those would be very helpful for us. We're sort of late getting started, but we'd find it very helpful.

We know that the National Arts Centre has been very supportive of minority languages in its Atlantic Scene and Alberta Scene. We're not so sure the minority community in Quebec is getting the same kind of attention, so that could be examined while the programming is still ongoing.

Finally, a number of work groups have been established in the francophone artistic community, and something similar would be very beneficial in helping the English community to get organized, make some contacts, and take its future in its own hands.

I trust I haven't gone too far over the five minutes. Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rodgers. We were a little slow on cutting the clock off because you were somewhat late, so we made a bit of an exception there.

We're going to continue with Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Ms. Epners, Mr. MacLeod, Mr. Perreault, Mr. Rodgers.

We only have five minutes, and the subject is very broad. I want to emphasize that, in the early 1990s, I worked at the Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne-française with Roger Bernard, who is no longer with us. That man from Hearst and professor at the University of Ottawa had published a document entitled Vision d'avenir for the federation. In four volumes, he told the old story of how “the fruit of our womb is blessed”. I'm from the Franco-Ontarian world, and I lived in Saskatchewan, among the Fransaskois, for a long time. He talked about what the federal government should consider doing to remedy the horrors of the past and the horrors that still exist today in regard to political will, through the inaction of provincial and federal governments, which close their eyes to this matter, in order to set out on the path toward assimilation.

The statistics on assimilation in Table 5 of the document provided by Impératif français are aberrant. Unions seeing 74% of their workers dying on the job site would do something. In Saskatchewan, the assimilation rate is 74%. In a country that calls itself official bilingual, it's heartbreaking to see the community die out that much in Saskatchewan; we're talking about 37% or 50%. Even in New Brunswick, the rate is 9%. These figures are appalling.

Mr. Perreault, from Impératif français, has raised this question, and it's an issue that has been around for nearly 20 years now. Even the Supreme Court has ruled on this subject.

Mr. Perreault, could you explain to us the reparations approach that should be adopted so that French is considered an element that should be revived or at least put back on the rails relative to bilingualism?

[Jean-Paul Perreault]

If you look at the statistics on the screen, you'll see that Francophone assimilation and defrancization are dramatic in all provinces outside Quebec. This has been going on for centuries. In 30 years, from one census to another, this trend has not declined, on the contrary. Despite the federal official languages policy, the situation has become even more dramatic.

That's why Impératif français urges the Canadian government to rethink its language policy, to make room for a new policy focusing on the protection and promotion of French across Canada. This does not imply that the bilingualism policy should be excluded, but it is clear that one of the two official languages is a minority language. Within the Canadian federation and in the North American context, the situation is asymmetrical from the outset, as a result of which we cannot consider these two languages as equals: one of them requires more resources than the other.

The federal government's bilingualism policy has had a defrancizing effect. In Quebec, where there are 590,000 Anglophones, 60% of federal government jobs require knowledge of English. In Ontario, just next door, only 10% of federal jobs require knowledge of French, for a virtually equivalent number of Francophones, that is 510,000. As a result of this kind of aberration, for centuries now, Francophones across the country have been anglicizing. It is in this context that we urge the government to act responsibly with regard to our cultural heritage, which includes La Francophonie, of course, and to implement programs to provide more support for the minority official language, which is in trouble even in Quebec.

Considering the language transfers in Quebec, the language that dominates isn't French. In 2001, the impotance of the language of Quebec's Anglophone community increased by 26% as a result of language transfers. In the Canadian and North American context, despite legislation designed to protect the French language, we are unable to protect it, even in Quebec. English is still the language that dominates in Quebec. So imagine the dramatic effects felt by our countrymen and countrywomen who are members of the French-language communities outside Quebec.

In one way or another, the federal government will have to consider implementing a cross-Canada policy based on the promotion of French, together with the necessary resources. I invite you to think about that. The energy could initially be generated by the Standing Committee on Official Languages. This is an obvious need. We cannot continue to live in these kinds of situations. These figures don't come from our organization, but from the federal agency: Statistics Canada. The situation is dramatic. One cannot, you cannot, we cannot not understand why this requires restorative measures. The Constitution of Canada recognizes the possibility of implementing restorative programs. This is necessary.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Earlier my colleague from Manitoba talked about making alliances. If I understood correctly, he wanted to know the number of FL1s in the immersion schools, that is people whose first language is French. In my opinion, the role of immersion schools is to enable Anglophones whose first language is English to learn French. That's laudable; that's the way to do things. However, for Francophones, immersion school is a school of assimilation. Studies show that this language then becomes the norm for students.

Perhaps we'll have the time to address the question of numbers in another round, provided there is one more.

You say that the Dion Plan didn't respect the numbers-based approach. Furthermore, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states “where numbers warrant”. But no one even wants to address the question of numbers. That reminds me of the comment by Sheila Copps, who said there was no more assimilation in Canada. Of course, if you don't take numbers into consideration, the reality becomes artificial.

Can you give us a minute so that we can talk about it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

It won't even be a minute, but roughly 10 seconds.

[Jean-Paul Perreault]

As for the vitality of the French-language communities, the trend must necessarily be measured by means of indicators. It's not enough to develop policies; you also have to measure the results of those policies. In that regard, the most important indicator, although not the only one, is numbers. The figures clearly showed us that a little earlier: the federal policy is producing inadequate results. In fact, they are dramatic, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you, Mr. Perreault.

I'm going to ask Mr. Godin to ask the next question.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to our witnesses.

Welcome to all the witnesses here this morning.

I'd like to start with Mr. Perreault. Table 5 shows the percentage losses among Francophones outside Quebec; Table 6 shows the gains for the Quebec Anglophone community.

In the latter case, are these Francophones who have opted for English?

[Jean-Paul Perreault]

That's the net balance, the net gains. The net gains are linguistic transfers. For example, in Quebec, according to the 2001 census, 591,000 citizens reported that their mother tongue was English, whereas 746,892 citizens declared that English was the language they used in the home, which shows what, in demographics, are called language transfers. There are people who have abandoned their mother tongue in order to speak mainly other languages in the home.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Is that or would that be as a result of immigration?

[Jean-Paul Perreault]

No. The comparison may come from Allophones who opt for English in the home and perhaps Francophones who opt for English as the language they use in the home. That's a net gain.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Because—

[Jean-Paul Perreault]

That's part of the assimilation phenomenon, because it's either Allophones or Francophones who are responsible for this increase.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

According to Mr. MacLeod,

if I get you right, I think you said in relation to the immigration in Quebec that when they bring people in, they have to go to the French school—

[Roderick MacLeod]

That's correct.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

—and if it's that, where is this number going to happen then? Did you see those numbers?

[Roderick MacLeod]

I don't understand these numbers; I'm sorry.

There is no way that the immigrant population, if we want to call it that, can increase numbers in any substantial way to the English school system. It is possible that francophones do attend English schools in Quebec; in fact, in some parts of the province there are considerable numbers of them because of a parent or grandparent who went to school in English. It means that English school systems rely, as I think I said, on people from outside the narrow community in order to fill their schools.

I still don't understand how that fits into the statistics, though. We'd have to have a much more detailed breakdown in order to understand that.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Is there an explanation?

[Jean-Paul Perreault]

Despite the requirement...

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I don't want to start a debate, but I think we're all here for that--to understand. If we're going to write a report, we want to understand what's happening.

[Jean-Paul Perreault]

I think I can give you the explanation, Mr. Godin. In addition to the requirement imposed on immigration children by the French-language Charter of attending the French-language school system in Quebec, having regard to the North American context, you will understand that the asymmetry between the languages requires additional measures in Quebec and Canada to protect and promote French. Quebec understood this and put the French-language Charter in place, and there's an obligation for immigrant children to attend the French-language school system.

However, despite this obligation, Mr. Godin—and this is where you should all ask yourselves the question—when you measure all of society in Quebec, all demographic movements on a linguistic basis, you clearly see the dominance of the English language, since English is the language that benefits most from language transfers, the one gaining ground through the contributions of Allophones and Francophones, as a result of which, through language transfers, the Anglophone community has grown from 22% in 1991 to 26%, despite the measures which, I would point out, have proven to be distinctly inadequate. Quebec and the Canadian government should adopt a language policy based on the promotion of French both in Quebec and, even more, outside Quebec. This is an emergency. We're facing a situation. The setbacks that French has suffered call for reparations, and to ensure reparations, responsible measures are needed. After all, the heritages of Canada and Quebec are at stake.