Official Languages Committee on April 17th, 2008

[Wilfrid Denis]

I want to talk about the issue of exogamy. Once again, studies show that 80% to 88% of families where both parents are francophone enrol their children in a school where French is the first language, if such a school is accessible. In exogamous households, that percentage drops to 30% to 35%. Instead of asking whether it's normal for 70% not to enrol their child in a French school, we should be asking which factors are driving 35% to enrol their children in programs to which they are entitled, and whether we can use those factors to increase that percentage.

In my opinion, it's a question of institutional anchors. If there are day cares and preschools, and we can integrate the children early enough into the system, in addition to enhancing the French language on a national level and showing that there is added value in this for exogamous households, we will be able to increase the number of exogamous couples enrolling their children in a francophone school.

Mr. Rodrigue Landry published a study on the hidden potential of exogamy. In that study he indicates how it's possible to increase the enrolment of children in rights-holder schools by exogamous households, by identifying the factors that can encourage them to do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Denis. Thank you, Mr. Chong.

We will now move on to Mr. Gravel.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Good day. Thank you for being here. I have learned a lot this morning from listening to the three of you. It was really interesting.

I'm going to ask some questions and I want to know your conclusion, Mr. Denis.

Do Quebeckers or francophones from New Brunswick who are currently going to work in Alberta integrate the francophone community, or do they tend to become anglicized?

[Wilfrid Denis]

Here again, it depends on the structures in the host city. People have no wish to settle in areas like Fort McMurray, for example, where everything needs to be built from the ground up and where workers see themselves as temporary—they're only there for a few weeks and then they go home. Often, it's only once families have moved and are seeking a school for their kids that they start to take concrete action.

In Edmonton, organizations for francophone African immigrants and Acadians are integrated into the francophone community. In my opinion, when reception structures do exist, it's possible to go out and seek them.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

We will see this a little later, since this is fairly recent.

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

In two generations.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

In two generations? My God, that's a long time away.

Mr. Denis, earlier, you talked about the weakening of the Catholic Church. Mr. Jedwab also referred to this. Has the Catholic Church protected the country's francophones?

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

It has not solely protected francophones. The institutions on which francophones in Canada relied up until the 1960s were essentially church-based, be it the parish, convents, hospitals and so forth. We should remember that the Montfort Hospital was created by nuns 50 years ago. The state took it over less than 20 years after the nuns on the farm were expropriated.

Institutions led by the clergy were francophone, they weren't bilingual and they belonged to the community. There was a major change. That said, the church no longer has the strength nor the capacity to manage institutions today.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'd like to hear your conclusion, Mr. Denis.

[Wilfrid Denis]

The Catholic Church also excluded people. Some non-Catholic francophones were excluded from our communities because those institutions were Catholic. Over the years, there have been problems with non-Catholic francophone immigrants.

In conclusion, we must recognize that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, 1982, played a fundamental role, legally speaking, but that role is limited. We should look at what's been done elsewhere in the world with regard to rights since 1982. I think that, for example, the European Union has recognized the underdevelopment of some regions by including in its basic principles rights on institutional catch-up.

We should also look at how we might extend the framework of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In particular, we need to recognize that the notion of citizenship has not been set out in the charter once and for all. It's possible that, by 2026 or 2040, our definition of citizenship will be much broader, flexible and different than what is set out in the charter. It's possible that we might hold governments responsible not only for their actions, but also for acts of omission. It's possible that francophone linguistic communities will take the government to court for damages or redress for delays or refusals by those governments to act. It's the same as with the residential schools to which aboriginals were sent. In that case, they're being judged not based on the goodwill of the individuals who set up those schools between 1860 and 1940 and who thought they were doing good, but rather based on today's criteria.

In 2026 and 2046, will we judge our governments based on different standards of social justice and different definitions of citizenship than those we have today?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Denis and Mr. Gravel.

We will continue with Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Some anglophones were frustrated by the fact that they couldn't send their children to French school for a better education due to regulations forcing them to send them to an immersion program. Anglophones wonder if people really want them to learn French. They wonder why francophones feel the need to say that they absolutely have to have schools that are francophone or anglophone.

For example, in New Brunswick, francophones can go to English school. The francophones in Beresford go to a French school from grade one to grade eight, and then an English school from grade nine to grade 12. They graduate from high school completely bilingual; they don't even know whether they're francophone or anglophone when they speak.

What do you think?

[Wilfrid Denis]

This goes back to what Mr. Thériault said about linguistic regimes. It's important that the dominant group learn the language of the minority. In order to do that, we need immersion programs and training courses for public servants to ensure that they're bilingual. At the same time, we need to have a linguistic regime that recognizes the uniqueness or the cultural dimension of those linguistic communities. What factors form the basis for a francophone community's identity and culture? The institutions need to be managed by the community in order to ensure that they meet that community's needs.

The problem is when we look at systems that are competing with each other. We must recognize that the needs are different and find ways to cooperate on shared aspects. For example, in Saskatchewan, the Francofièvre event is a day during which immersion students and Franco-Saskatchewanian students are invited to celebrate the French language with music, workshops, etc.

There are ways to promote the French language and see it as an important aspect of Canadian society, but we also need to have comfort zones, meaning institutions that belong to the communities, so that young people can develop their identity and culture there.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

During our trip, wasn't it in Saskatchewan that we were told—and this is another subject that I want to talk about—that new schools had been built for anglophones and that then the francophones had inherited the old anglophone schools?

[Wilfrid Denis]

I would not want to suggest that Saskatchewan's example be followed in every area.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Nevertheless, the idea of sending your children to a school that has already been closed is surely quite discouraging for parents.

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

This speaks to a purely practical problem. The anglophones who want to send their kids to an immersion program want their kids to have an additional tool, meaning for them to learn another language. But the goal is not to assimilate their children into French culture. We're not talking about francophone schools where French is the mother tongue, but rather schools where the majority of students don't speak French and so the curriculum is designed to help students learn the language. In this case, the francophone parents are saying that they want a school where they could develop as a linguistic community.

In a place like Caraquet or even Bathurst, if 10% of the students in a francophone school are anglophone children, there are no problems with regard to teaching them. These students will assimilate into the francophone group. However, if we try to develop a francophone identity project in a French school in Calgary, for example where 90% of the students speak English as their mother tongue, this wouldn't work. That kind of project could be done in Chicoutimi or Caraquet, but not in Toronto. Those people wouldn't be interested, since their goal is not to develop a francophone identity but rather to learn a language as an additional tool, to broaden their horizon on the world.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

We are now into round three. However, as you know, committee members, there is a motion we would like to debate. We could do a full five-minute round, but that wouldn't leave us much time at the end. Perhaps we could keep it to three or four minutes each. You could ask your questions and I could stop you once your four minutes were up. Are you okay with that?

Mr. St. Denis, you have the floor.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to thank our witnesses and ask two questions.

Mr. Jedwab, I'm an example of a child from a family with one francophone parent and the other an anglophone.

You gave us statistics on the percentage of marriages between anglophones and francophones. Could you tell us the proportion of couples in which it's the mother who's anglophone, as was the case in my family? It was difficult for a child like me and it's difficult for children who are in that situation.

[Jack Jedwab]

I will provide you with a study that has data on that. In any event, the region a person lives in is a major factor. Indeed, it has a strong influence on language choices. The territorial concentration of a given group is a factor, but more often than not, if the mother is francophone—but once again, it depends on the region—the child's first language will in general be French, except in regions where there are virtually no francophones. In those cases, English may be the language that is transmitted. The mother is the one with the greatest influence, but that situation could change in the years to come, given that the trend is strongly related to traditional roles for women and men in the workplace. Those roles are currently evolving, and this means that the trend could also change in the future. Basically, the census still suggests that the mother plays a greater role.

That said, we find that some young people see themselves as having a dual identity in terms of language and culture. That's the case even in Quebec. Not much was said about it, but according to the post-census study referred to earlier, 40% of anglophones describe themselves as being both anglophone and francophone.

Outside Montreal, that phenomenon is quite widespread. For example, in Quebec City and in regions like Trois-Rivières or the Eastern Townships, you see more of this kind of dual identification. Personally, I identify as anglophone, francophone and allophone all at once. I divide myself three ways.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I'm also trying to discover my roots.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

There are also DNA tests, Mr. St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Please, no tests.

That's all, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Denis, you spoke earlier about a practical aspect that I find really interesting. It has to do with programs that were offered to the communities. You used the expression “one size fits all” to say that these programs enable development up to a point.

I have a very specific example to give you. The Association culturelle franco-canadienne, the ACFC, which used to represent all Franco-Saskatchewanians, became, if I'm not mistaken, the Association communautaire fransaskoise. All organizations were represented at the ACFC. Now, no organization is represented at the ACF. Instead, individuals are elected throughout the province. Since those individuals are not necessarily connected to any organizations, in my view, the connection has been severed, something is broken.

Am I mistaken? Can you give us an example where things should have been done differently to help the communities, given that we now have some experience?