Official Languages Committee on May 6th, 2008

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

We will now move on with the second tour. We now have the five-minute rounds. I understand that our witnesses have some, I would say, comprehensive answers. Still, I think we can move on, and we'll see if a third round is required, depending on the will of the members.

We'll start right away with Mr. Brent St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you all for being here today. I have two brief questions to ask you.

First, like my other colleagues from rural ridings, I am very interested in access to the public service for our rural citizens. Is language testing a barrier for our rural citizens? Are there problems, because of the distance and means of communication, with administering the tests? Do these tests represent obstacles for our citizens?

[Maria Barrados]

We are always concerned about issues relating to access to the public service. However, the places where the tests are administered depend on the place of work. There are always problems regarding access to the workplaces and the places where the tests are administered. From time to time, we administer the tests by telephone, but in order to administer the written tests, we need some place to do so, and that means that people have to travel there.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

So in general, there is no barrier.

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, there is. We cannot administer tests in rural regions, and so people who live there must travel to a testing centre.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

But there must be a way of solving these problems.

[Donald Lemaire]

In those cases, we can do testing by telephone. However, the candidate must go to a certain centre to prove his or her identity. So there is a minimum requirement. We also work with our partners from Service Canada, for example. We use their offices to administer tests.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have another question, Mr. Chairman.

We hear a great deal in the news about the new government rule relating to the publication of press releases. For example, Ms. Fraser must submit drafts of her press releases. That applies to you as well, Ms. Barrados.

What is the goal of such a system?

[Maria Barrados]

I have heard criticism about communications, and an employee from my office attends the meetings of government communication representatives. I explained that I had two roles within the government: a parliamentary role and an administrative role. As concerns my administrative tasks, I am prepared to follow the rules, but as concerns my parliamentary functions, I am not going to follow the rules. That's what I said, and I had no problem. For example, I did not send a copy of my opening remarks today to anyone before presenting them. When the RCMP report was tabled, I issued a press release. It was not approved before I sent it to Parliament and to the media. I indicated that I intended to use my discretionary powers as someone appointed by Parliament and I did not receive a negative response.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Ms. Barrados.

We now go to the government side. Mr. Petit, the floor is yours.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Greetings, Ms. Barrados, Mr. Lemaire and Mr. Edwards.

We always wonder whether the senior public service—of which you are examples—is bilingual or not. People can be functionally bilingual or bilingual very easily for other reasons.

The Commissioner of Official Languages, when he came to testify, presented a report that read as follows: “Ninety per cent of employees responsible for providing service to the public in both official languages meet the language requirements of their positions.” So there is a link established between bilingualism and the position. That means that the employee may not necessarily be bilingual in other aspects of his or her position. A senior manager is not a machine. He or she does many other things in life, even it is only to correspond with all employees.

Do the language requirements for your position appear strict to you today? I expect you to answer based on all the tasks that you carry out today and not with regard to former tasks. Are the requirements for your position very strict? How can the linguistic duality of these tasks be appreciated by the public? Ultimately, it is the public who will know whether the public service is bilingual or not.

You have a new power, which I will call a power of oversight, because there is a delegation. How can a deputy minister who does not speak French or English communicate with his minister? Does he use the services of an interpreter? Does he bring two interpreters, one for French and one for English? There are situations in the public service where the deputy minister has trouble communicating with his minister and vice versa.

How does your power of oversight allow you to assess the situation on the ground in ways other than the use of tests? I may pass an exam but not actually be able to speak the language in practice. I would like to know what you do. What should be improved, if anything at all?

[Maria Barrados]

Thank you. I will try to answer your questions. First, I would like to point out that the Public Service Commission is not responsible for deputy ministers. We are responsible for the positions of all other public servants, that is, those of assistant deputy ministers on down. However, I find that the request to specify the level of bilingualism of deputy ministers to be a good idea.

According to our current approach, by law, the definition of merit and the essential requirements associated with a position include the level of bilingualism. To obtain a position, public servants must meet the essential requirements of this position under the act, and that includes the level of bilingualism. The determination of the level required is the responsibility of the public servants. A manager determines whether a position requires a level A, B or C in French or English. That makes it an essential requirement of the position, and that requirement must be met.

You asked me whether the requirements in terms of bilingualism had changed. They were increased for senior managers under a government policy. Level CBC is required for all assistant deputy ministers, directors general and anyone higher than a director general in the bilingual regions. In addition, the Commissioner of Official Languages performs follow-up of service delivery in both languages. I think that things have improved there as well. Lastly, we are closely monitoring the use of exemptions in instances of non-imperative staffing, given that this is subject to the act and to PSC exclusions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Petit.

Mr. Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Greetings, distinguished guests.

I recently had lunch with a group of public servants who told me that they meet at noon to speak in French because during the day, everything happens in English in their department. Are you able to do something about this? Bilingual francophones will never lose their bilingualism, but anglophones who never have a chance to speak French will never be able to become bilingual, in my opinion.

[Maria Barrados]

When I was with the Auditor General's Office, I observed that situation in several departments. In some places, only one language was spoken, and it was often English. However, I noticed that in the Quebec City region only French was spoken. However, it is true that in some cases, the workplace is not really bilingual.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I was referring to the situation in Ottawa, on Parliament Hill, and not in Quebec City. I understand that people tend to speak more French in Quebec City and more English in Alberta. I have no problem with that, provided people are capable of answering in both languages. I have travelled across the country. In addition I visit all national parks and I check whether members of the staff can speak French. Some of them can only speak English, but that doesn't bother me. It's normal. They may only speak with two francophones per year.

However, the situation on Parliament Hill is rather disappointing. Sometimes, people who are unilingual anglophones or francophones are called upon to provide services. That means that everyone who is bilingual must speak the language of the person in question rather than their own language. That's what bothers me somewhat.

[Maria Barrados]

I know that it is often a question of courtesy. People want to be polite. I encourage people to use both languages in my office because it gives me the opportunity to practise, and I know that Sheila Fraser does the same thing.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

If we are too polite, we risk losing our mother tongue. It is all very well to be polite, but people should think of us from time to time. We are losing our language. In Quebec, in Montreal, it is the same thing.

You referred to testing. You said that the francophone and anglophone teams work together. Some people said that the tests were more difficult for francophones than for anglophones. Francophones who are fully bilingual have no trouble speaking both languages, whereas unilingual anglophones have much more trouble speaking French. I understand that. So I don't understand why the tests are more difficult in French than in English.

[Maria Barrados]

The success rates indicate people's language skills. It has nothing to do with testing. We have recently noticed that francophones find the test in English more difficult, and their success rates are lower than in the past.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You said that once people have obtained their E or C levels, they no longer have to undergo testing. But perhaps it would be a good idea to administer tests to them occasionally. I have the impression that unilingual francophones cannot function in Ottawa, whereas unilingual anglophones can. Maybe it would be a good idea to re-test people after 10 years to ensure that they are still bilingual.

[Maria Barrados]

Under current policy, when a public servant changes positions, he or she must have been re-evaluated within the previous five years. If an employee does not change positions, he or she does not have to sit a new test. We have decided that because of the high scores for exemptions, there is no need to administer the tests again.

We are ready to carry out further studies to put together a reasonable sample and verify if those who were exempted have maintained their proficiency level. We talked about this type of sampling. It could include those who have just entered retirement. I can inquire to see what has become of those exemptions. I do not know if this can be done, but we are ready to do so if that interests the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Gaudet for your questions.

We now move on to Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was in partial agreement with Mr. Petit when he stated that the people appointed speak only in one language. Is there a deputy minister who speaks only French? To my knowledge, there are none. So really, it is the English-speaking deputy ministers who do not speak any French. Do you know how many deputy ministers are unable to speak French?

[Maria Barrados]

As I said, I'm not responsible for deputy ministers. I do not have the power to—