Official Languages Committee on May 7th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, both of you.

We'll continue with Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to point out to you that I'll have a motion to introduce at the end of the meeting; I will be bringing it in a few moments. We'll come back to that.

Good morning, Ms. Kassi and Mr. Labrie.

Ms. Kassi, I've taken some notes. You said in your presentation that a second language is acquired more quickly and readily in an entirely unilingual immersion setting.

Could you elaborate on that subject and tell us how your institution could be a solution to the problem we're trying to solve, at least to a certain degree, so that there are more qualified graduates who are able to function in French and English once they've completed their education?

[Bernadette Kassi]

This observation is based on a number of findings, first that of the experts in second-language instruction and acquisition research. They unanimously agree that, to learn a second language, you have to be immersed in an environment where the majority speaks that language. That's the first finding.

The second finding concerns the results of all those second-language acquisition methods used by the federal public service to lead federal public servants to acquire a second language. A number take courses at language schools a few hours a week; others receive courses in their offices, and the result is that they've not yet reached a satisfaction level or satisfactory success rate using those methods to enable the majority of those federal public servants to acquire that second language.

The third finding is that most anglophone universities that have understood the importance of developing bilingualism favour immersion programs, those that enable students who have a different first language to soak up the second language in a francophone context or environment, in addition to courses and extra-curricular activities. This enables them to develop this language ability or language skills in their second language.

Based on those three findings, we've observed that it is true that immersion programs do exist. Either they are short-term courses for those students or individuals and do not enable them to develop enough language skills to become bilingual, or those students are immersed in a majority first-language environment, which also undermines the objective or effectiveness of that method. Hence the proposal to offer these learners a framework or environment that is a majority second-language environment so that they can optimize what they are already learning about that second language in courses.

As a solution, we propose the Université du Québec en Outaouais, given that, as I said in my opening remarks, it has a geographic location that does not help it but it could be very strategic. It is a francophone environment, but one in which anglophones who would come to learn French at the UQO would not feel entirely out of their element. Not only would they be in contact with French speakers, they would also be immersed in a francophone environment, while retaining their first language, their mother tongue, which is English.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

That's good.

In your view, although the primary and secondary schools are the best places to learn a second language, adults can nevertheless learn one. What could you offer federal public servants to enable them one day to become bilingual?

[Bernadette Kassi]

To enable our federal public servants one day to become totally bilingual, we suggest, for example, that they enrol in this immersion program that lasts one semester. Instead of taking courses for an hour a week over two or three years, we could concentrate that learning in 15 weeks. They would enrol in a one-semester course. They could get leave or take the course on a part-time basis, but, in one way or another, they could learn the second language and be immersed in a francophone environment for a semester. I think that could promote faster learning of that language.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

You would encourage them to take the course on your campus, is that correct?

[Bernadette Kassi]

That's correct, on the UQO site.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

Mr. Godin, go ahead please.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Kassi, Mr. Labrie, I'm pleased to see you. This is very interesting.

Ms. Kassi, can the francophones who attend your university speak a little English when they leave it?

[Bernadette Kassi]

Let's say that you have to draw a distinction between programs. All the programs are in French, but there are a few courses in English within those programs.

I'll talk about the programs in language studies that I am most familiar with. In our undergraduate translation and writing programs, for example, we prepare students to become translators and writers. That represents 90 credits, or 30 courses. Ten per cent of those courses are in English, the English writing and English comprehension courses. However, 90% of the courses are in French because the program is in French.

The students we admit are supposed to have both official languages. We require that students take an admission exam that consists of two parts, a text that must be written in French and a text that must be translated from English into French. We check their language skills in French and in English at the outset. This means that a person who does not master English or French cannot be admitted to our translation and writing program. That's the situation regarding the language studies programs.

However, in the other programs, in education, for example, we can't require that students master English because the purpose is to train people who will teach French or mathematics, for example.

To answer your question, I would say that the majority of programs offered at the UQO are French-language programs, even though there are a few courses in English within those programs.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Are there any courses at your university so that these people can go and work in the federal government, for example? Are they able to acquire enough proficiency in English to get federal government jobs?

[Bernadette Kassi]

Yes, I would say that, in science—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Can people who attend your university master English when they leave it?

[Bernadette Kassi]

The answer always has to be qualified. You have to answer by sector.

In business administration, for example, although the courses are given in French, most of the documentation is in English. As a result, students who want to succeed in business administration have to be proficient in English in order to read the documents.

Consequently, when they graduate, most of them are able to function in English and in French, but I couldn't answer off-hand for the others—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I have to interrupt you because I would like to get at one thing.

You say that an anglophone should learn French in a francophone environment. However, francophones can learn English without being in an anglophone environment. Don't you agree with me?

I'd also like to hear from Mr. Labrie. If anglophones want to be able to have jobs in Ottawa, they have to learn English. They don't have a choice; if they don't learn it, they won't find a job.

The government could adopt policies that would tell the universities and primary schools that people have to be bilingual in order to work for the federal government, that the future is a bilingual country, that there are two official languages in this country and that to have a job in government, you'll have to be able to speak both languages.

I'm an Acadian, and I come from the Saint-Sauveur region in New Brunswick. I can guarantee you that the percentage of English speakers is only 1%. I'm talking about the community, about schools and everything. In spite of that, if I hadn't learned English, I wouldn't have gotten a job. It was easy. I didn't need anglophones around me to learn it because, if I didn't learn it, I wouldn't have gotten a job.

Why will people even in francophone regions learn English except because they want to get a job? I think it's too easy. Pardon me, but it's too easy for anglophones to complete their education and afterwards find a job.

Mr. Labrie, you clearly said that anglophones or francophones who were able to speak French on leaving university found jobs in less than one year because they had both official languages.

However, it's harder for those who haven't learned both languages. Doesn't the government have a role to play in telling our training institutions what our country is?

[Bernadette Kassi]

I meant that the UQO wants to establish bilingual and even multilingual programs so that, in every program that all students take, they'll be perfectly bilingual at the end.

To answer your question, it's true that the current programs are francophone programs. However, as a result of the geographic situation of the Outaouais, francophones are immersed in an anglophone environment outside the university.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You said that even the books were in English.

[Bernadette Kassi]

In administration, the documentation is in English. I specified the program concerned and noted that you shouldn't generalize because it's really sector by sector. In administration, most of the documentation is in English. Consequently, the students read English.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Godin, and thank you, Ms. Kassi.

We're going to continue with a student from the University of Toronto, the Honourable Michael Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm going to ask my questions in English.

I want to direct my questions to Monsieur Labrie about the role that Canadian universities can play in the Government of Canada's renewal of the public service.

We're the largest employer in the country. We directly employ, in the public service, 263,000 people. If you include the Department of National Defence, the Canadian Forces, and the crown corporations and agencies, the number is probably closer to 400,000 or 450,000 people.

We are the largest employer. We're the most national employer. We have 1,600 points of service and offices in Canada. We're the most international employer. We operate in 150 countries abroad.

We're the largest single employer in the country and the most diverse in terms of geographic spread and the capabilities and responsibilities of the government. We're also undergoing the single largest renewal of any organization in the history of the country.

Twenty-five per cent of the public service can retire in the next three years, by 2012, and we are presently hiring 10,000 to 12,000 Canadians a year. The average age of the executives in the public service is 50. In other words, in the next 10 to 15 years, that entire executive class in the public service will need to be replaced.

We have significant challenges facing us. This renewal of the public service that is going to take place is the largest in this country's history, and we need to have the country's most qualified graduates, reflecting not only our diversity but our linguistic duality. But I don't believe we're getting the graduates we need from Canadian universities, especially from anglophone universities.

We're not getting them in terms of the diversity requirements that need to be met. The statistics show that the number of visible minorities in the public service has consistently not been up to the levels we need. That is a long-standing problem. Also, we're not getting the bilingual graduates we need to staff the public service. That's also clear in the fact that we have to devote a significant amount of resources to retraining this country's recently graduated students to learn the other language. In most cases, more often than not, it's to learn French.

I think the University of Toronto, as the largest and one of the most pre-eminent universities on this continent, has a leadership role to play in helping us get the public servants we need to meet the challenges of this century. I start that off by way of background.

The trends are not encouraging. When we look at the graduates we're receiving from Canadian high schools and secondary institutions, the trends aren't good. Statistics Canada reports that the percentage of bilingual students from 15 to 19 years old fell from about 25% to 22% over the 10-year period from 1996 to 2006.

I have a number of questions for you. First, have the federal government, the Clerk of the Privy Council, and federal institutions been working with the University of Toronto and with other universities in Canada to develop strategies to help us meet the need for more bilingual public servants?

[Normand Labrie]

Thank you.

I'm very glad to hear this background information that you gave. Personally, I didn't know about that, and I'm sure our students don't know about it. I don't think students will become bilingual through coercion, but they will through incentives. If they know there are many opportunities for them if they graduate in a field of their own interest and they have the other official language as well, they will be much better positioned to have those 12,000 positions that are coming up in the next few years.

Learning a language starts with primary and secondary education, and it is in those sectors that improvements have to be made first. That is where the federal government and the provinces have a role to play, by making sure that students have the chance to learn the other language and have access to quality programs in the other official language.

I see the role of the universities here in high-quality teacher education programs to train good teachers through the best methods, and also in conducting up-to-date research so that we are informed about the best practices. I think this is the role of the university.

At the university level, offering options or programs to students that give them a chance to add French to commerce or economics or political science is the way to go. I don't think making it mandatory for students would necessarily lead to great success, but if the federal government can support making French more available in universities in some programs and if students know that there is potential for them to access jobs, I think they will surely use those opportunities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Labrie. Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Now we'll start our second round with Ms. Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My question is for Ms. Kassi. I'm continuing in the same vein. Fewer and fewer bilingual students are coming out of educational institutions. There is some concern, and, as my colleague just mentioned, there will be increasing job opportunities. So we have to ensure that we have people who have the skills to occupy the jobs that will be available. Even the Minister of Canadian Heritage said, when he came here, that they had abandoned their target of doubling the number of bilingual students by 2013.

Since you are favoured by your geographic situation, I would like to know whether the federal government has approached you for an initiative or strategy to meet the public service's need for bilingual staff.

[Bernadette Kassi]

No, there hasn't been any official request of that kind, but the university has for some time been considering the possibility of developing strategies for offering bilingual programs so that, at the end of their programs, Quebec and Canadian students who attend the UQO are bilingual, which is not currently the case, unless the students themselves take courses to improve their language skills in addition to the workload of the program in which they are enrolled.

There's no agreement in that area for the moment. The Université du Québec en Outaouais is very open to the idea, but we don't have the resources because offering bilingual programs requires a bilingual teaching staff and support staff. All that raises financial challenges that the UQO is unable to meet at this time.