Official Languages Committee on March 3rd, 2009

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

All right, the printout.

[Jasmine Gallant]

The first pertains to the printout; the second pertains to the braille symbol. Then, you see the number 25 as a printout and then as a braille sign, in English and French, in the third part of the table.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

That is the Nemeth Code.

[Jasmine Gallant]

Yes.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

All right, now I understand.

[Jasmine Gallant]

Then, in the second part, you can really see the differences. It states clearly that the transcription, for the time being, will only be for literary works. This has not yet been completed for mathematical and scientific documents, for which there is no option.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

So if I understand correctly, it is simply an alphabet used for spelling. Finally, regardless of whether it is in English or in French, it is the same alphabet.

So when we start to standardize, it is as if we were changing the alphabet completely and teaching a new alphabet to the students starting out in primary school. It is completely different from what we thought. It is not the system that we have been shown. In the final analysis, according to what you have said today, the standardized French braille code does not standardize; rather, it does the opposite. It is really by maintaining the Abraham Nemeth Code that we are going to be able to standardize. Those are you recommendations today.

Thank you very much for this clarification.

[Jasmine Gallant]

You are welcome.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Ms. Zarac, for summarizing our meeting.

I will now invite Ms. Thi Lac to take the floor. Pardon me, I will get back to you, Ms. Thi Lac, but in accordance with our speakers' list, I must first of all give Mr. Petit the floor.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Let's let Ms. Thi Lac ask her question now, because she has already prepared it. I will speak after.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Fine. Go ahead, Ms. Thi Lac.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Good morning, Ms. Gallant and Mr. Côté. It is a pleasure meeting you this morning. I am here simply to replace Ms. Guay, who had suggested that the committee undertake the study.

I am familiar with the problems experienced by many visually impaired people, because I have sat on committees along with visually impaired individuals. The vice-chair of my executive committee was not sighted. So this is something that I am very familiar with.

You explained the great difficulty that currently exists in learning this at school. I would like to understand the impact of this standardization on teachers. This requires a great deal of structural change for the school system. What will the main consequence of all this be?

Furthermore, how much time will it take to assimilate all of this? For someone who had to learn this standardized code, how much time does this represent?

[Jasmine Gallant]

First of all, the difficulty lies in the production. I do not know how we are going to deal with this production.

As for how much time is required to learn it, it all depends on the individual, the individual's knowledge and baggage. As for the students, we know that children are, generally speaking, flexible. However, for those students at a higher level of learning, for example, students in high school and those preparing for post-secondary education, I do not think that they will be as open to learning a new code, because the students will then, once at university, have to go back to the old code. That is why I hesitate to state how much time is required to learn this code.

[Jacques Côté]

The problem lies in the fact that all of the school books, particularly in science and in math, are already transcribed according to the Abraham Nemeth Code, and this applies to all students, whether they be francophones or anglophones, whether they come from Quebec or elsewhere, it does not matter. First of all, we are going to have to think about retranscribing the books in accordance with a new code. This scientific books are going to be the most problematic. I am not talking about novels, because they are not complicated to do.

Then, we have to ask ourselves how much time this will take. A child is like a sponge, if I can use the expression: a child can absorb a great deal. This child will not have too many problems learning something new, but the fact remains that, in his French course, he is going to have to use one code for writing, and in his English course, he will have to use the code used by anglophones, and if he gets to CEGEP or university, he is going to have to use documents transcribed in Quebec, in anglophone Canada where...

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Do you agree that this could even set back an entire generation of students?

[Jacques Côté]

More than one generation. This is an extremely serious matter, madam. Basically, we should find out why that was done. We are told that it will help standardization, which means one single system for preparing books in Quebec and elsewhere. There is a question that I have always put and that no one ever wanted to answer. There is absolutely no common school program. I am not talking about novels. France could transcribe Le Petit Prince, and we could transcribe something else. That is not where the problem lies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

The Abraham Nemeth Code is the one currently being used in Quebec. The Code Antoine is the new system, is it not? Could an adult who has left school long ago and who has always worked with the Abraham Nemeth Code be able to read a novel as quickly if he uses the new code?

[Jacques Côté]

Yes, absolutely, and for a very simple reason, Mr. Nadeau. The pages of the book will be numbered in the Code Antoine. There are 10 figures to learn. Novels do not create any problems because the only figures are the ones used to number the pages.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thus, the problem is with academic and scientific books.

[Jacques Côté]

You have understood the whole picture.

[Jasmine Gallant]

Except for the fact that an adult is sometimes not as flexible and has more difficulty in learning.

[Jacques Côté]

Let me give you a very simple example.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Mr. Côté, we will come back to your example if we have any time left.

Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will address Mr. Côté and Ms. Gallant.

I had the opportunity to learn about the existence of the Abraham Nemeth Code. Naturally, a person who is not blind cannot decipher the meaning of this code. The main reason why you are here is standardization. Currently, Quebec, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and the Territories are using the Nemeth Code. Therefore, we have standardization. However, the new standard French braille code coming from Europe was just introduced in North America and it is about to shake things up. With the Nemeth Code, we can communicate with anglophones in United States, in Australia and in other countries. However, the francophone community is pressuring us to use the new standard code. This would upset all the work that you have done over such a long period of time.

From coast to coast, the current national standard is the Nemeth Code, both for anglophone students and for francophone students. In Quebec, there are also blind anglophones, literally speaking, of course. Mr. Côté and Ms. Gallant, you already made a very specific point when you said that we already have standardization, and you explained this at great length. The standard French braille code must not be allowed to upset all the work that has been done in Quebec and in all the provinces.