Official Languages Committee on March 5th, 2009

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Gravelle.

We will now move to the government side to Ms. Shelly Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Welcome. I can't tell you how much we appreciate your view on this. We as a committee had a moment at the last session where a light bulb went off, because our first witnesses on this subject tended to be much like you, Ms. Goulden. They appreciated the standardization and looked to it as one simple way of providing extra access, etc. In the next session we had two francophone witnesses who were involved in the teaching of French Braille, who saw significant problems trying to teach it, trying to maintain it, in our school systems in particular.

I just have a few questions, Ms. Goulden, just to understand how much involvement you've had in the French Braille. Do you read Braille in French?

[Jen Goulden]

Yes.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Okay, and when you read French Braille, are you using Antoine numbering or are you using Nemeth numbering?

[Jen Goulden]

Basically, I'm not really using the math system. I'm reading a text document, and yes, they have numbers in it, but the way Braille works is that when you're using literary Braille, you use numbers in a certain way. If I was reading a math textbook, then I would use a math code, which is part of, again, why they want to standardize it. They want to say, “Okay, no matter what you're reading, you're going to do numbers this way”, as opposed to doing it....

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

What numbering system do you read, Ms. Goulden, just so I can figure it out?

[Jen Goulden]

I know the Nemeth system because that's what I learned in school, and I also know the way numbers are used in literary Braille. You just get a text document or any kind of document that just happens to have some numbers in it. I wouldn't say that I'm overly familiar with Antoine on its own, enough to read a math textbook in French or a science textbook. I haven't had the opportunity to do that.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I think the light bulb moment for all of us was the fact that a whole new mathematics system would have to be used, and we have students in various stages of development, so that would affect them.

Have you tried to read the standardized French that was developed in France, compared to the Quebec French Braille?

[Jen Goulden]

Right now I'm in the process of figuring it out. I'm researching. At work we're still using Braille the way it has been used, so I'm in the process of researching what the differences are. Even with the new standardized English code, it isn't that it's incomprehensible to somebody. It's not a completely new system, it just has modifications. Some of the rules are modified. For example, in French, before, you couldn't abbreviate proper names, and in the new standardized Braille, I believe, you're going to be allowed to do that. So for the person reading it, it's more that they're going to look at it and think, did they make a mistake? They're not going to think, “I don't understand this.”

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Right, but you're kind of guessing because it sounds like you haven't had too much opportunity to compare the Quebec French Braille to the new French Braille, and that's okay.

But what I think was brought to light for us, and I just want to share it because it really was a moment of discovery for all us, was.... In New Brunswick, we have a bilingual province, so our students of course are learning the French and the English language, which is already a large feat, plus they have to learn the Braille of both English and French, and they are people who are already facing life challenges. Now to have them learn a new.... It just seemed to the people who are involved in the instruction and the training that it could be very overwhelming for many of those students.

And then we have to change all of the books from province to province. I come from a province where it's a French minority, so again, when you don't have a large population, you don't have necessarily the funding to do all of this. So these were the challenges that could be insurmountable and could cause some great emotional risk to our students should we go this way--and particularly those students interested in math and science, where they have to learn a whole new language because Antoine is very different from Nemeth and Nemeth seems to be, as far as we've learned here, the system of choice amongst French and English Braille users because it is a standardized, mathematical, scientific Braille that both English and French can use with ease.

I just wanted to share that with you, because it really was enlightening for all of us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you. Thank you, Madame Glover, and Ms. Goulden can appreciate our learning curve in this field.

We'll move on to the second round, starting with Madame Lise Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I would like to thank Ms. Goulden and Mr. Loyd for being here.

I don't have any questions. I think that you have covered the issues fairly well so far.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Okay. Thank you, Madame Zarac.

Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I simply would like a clarification from Ms. Goulden. Your studies in linguistics... That's what you are studying now, isn't it?

[Jen Goulden]

I studied linguistics as a student.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Are you saying that you are currently studying linguistics?

[Jen Goulden]

Yes.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Are you also studying Braille script and the Nemeth Code, or something else?

[Jen Goulden]

When I said that I studied linguistics at university, it was simply to inform you that --

my educational background. It's not really connected to my knowledge of Braille. It's just what I studied.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Fine. I thought that you had pointed that out -- that's what I understood -- because we are studying the knowledge of Braille today. In that case, Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Ms. Goulden and Mr. Loyd.

Ms. Monique Guay, from the Bloc Québécois, raised a very important issue, and I have the impression that we put some very strange questions last week to our witnesses. I might mention that most of the witnesses, or at least some of them, were from my riding, because there are three organizations run by blind people in my riding. We have schools and even some industrial production involving activities which are in Braille.

Ms. Goulden, here is the situation I want to explain to you. This is how I understood it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. As it now stands, Francophones from Quebec and New Brunswick use the Nemeth Code for their studies, mainly, for reading novels and books which are not school manuals. The school systems in New Brunswick and Quebec are different, but in France, they are even more different from our systems. Consequently, Braille is mostly used for novels and general reading material.

The issue Ms. Guay raised, and which I find very interesting, is that in Europe the code will be standardized. France, Belgium and Switzerland will use the new standardized code beginning in September 2009, and it will also be used in Quebec. For this reason, if the code is adopted, people in New Brunswick and in Quebec will not be able to communicate or learn with francophones from other provinces, because the standardized code will introduce a new code, the Antoine Code, which will be used mostly in science and for the numbering of books. We learned that the number 12 is a and b in the current code, but that this would change under the Antoine Code. So that is already creating a problem. These people are already dealing with a handicap. Now in addition they will have to learn two languages. The third issue is that they will have to learn a script other than braille.

It's true that there is no standardization now. You said that virtually everyone is doing something about it, but it is script, and you can translate script from French into English or vice-versa. It's a form of writing, but it's also a language. Those are the two official languages.

Today, anglophones and francophones can use the same code. In French and in English, the Abraham Nemeth Code is used, and it is also used in the United States, Australia, England, and perhaps in other countries, too, which don't come to mind right now. Consequently, if the new standardized code is implemented, we risk becoming illiterate compared to other groups. We will not be able to talk to each other anymore. A person from Quebec or New Brunswick will not be able to communicate, if the new code is implemented, with a francophone from Manitoba, or Saskatchewan, or Alberta, or British Columbia.

Is that the reality? That's what I think was explained to me.

[Jen Goulden]

I guess I would say a couple of things.

One, as I said before, I am not a francophone. If this is how francophones feel about the issue, then obviously their opinion is worth more. Since French is their first language, I think their opinion should weigh more.

The other thing I want to say is that when I was learning Braille, I didn't find it an extra burden or an extra handicap. It was like a sighted student learning print. I don't really remember the process, to be honest. I just know that when I was very little, I couldn't read, and then I could read. So it wasn't a struggle.

The other thing is that the English and French codes are different regardless. I understand what you're saying about Nemeth and Antoine, but even just the abbreviations in the literary code are not the same from English to French. Anybody who's going to learn braille abrégé in both languages is going to learn completely different symbols. I know a completely different set of abbreviations for both French and English. The symbols are similar, but they represent different things in each writing system.

I just wanted to make those comments. I'm not trying to say something one way or the other; I'm just telling you that this has been my experience as a Braille reader.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Ms. Goulden.

Thank you, Mr. Petit.

Mr. Gravelle.