Official Languages Committee on Oct. 28th, 2014

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

No. Excellent point.

How many minutes do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

You have three more minutes.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Okay, thank you.

Getting back to something you had mentioned earlier about the public sector employees, I think you said that universities have to do more to send a message that both languages are required. I think you would agree, though, that it has to begin long before then. If you were learning a second language only in university, you've got a lot of ground to cover. It really is something that has to come through elementary school and following that, but, of course, reinforced, perhaps, in university, that two languages greatly improves the chances of getting employment. You would agree?

[Graham Fraser]

Absolutely. I see this as a series of, if you like, cascading incentives. I think that as an employer, the federal government should be sending that message to universities, and universities should be sending that message to secondary schools. Often students are making key decisions about the courses they're going to take when they're in grade 9. Sometimes they will be told by academic counsellors, no, that's not one of your stronger subjects. I've had immersion students say to me they've been told by their teachers in their last year of high school not to take the immersion exam but to take the core French exam because it's much easier, and they'll ace it, that all the universities care about is the marks. Well, that is a set of incentives for mediocrity. I think there should instead be a set of incentives for excellence. As an employer, the federal government has a series of rights and obligations, if you like, to convey to universities what it needs. Universities should be sending a message to students that they value those students who have gone to the effort of persisting in going through immersion and taking a more demanding program, and that they will take that into account when they evaluate their applications.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Right. I agree.

But let me ask you this, just to probe your thinking on it. I would hope that you would not believe—and perhaps you do, but tell me if so—that bilingualism in this country doesn't depend on a large government or an ever-expanding government. We don't measure the strength of the French or English communities, or our ability to communicate, solely through the barrel of the federal government. Our communities are strong because the communities are strong. The government can spend what it can spend. When decisions are made to rein in spending, it is going to have an impact throughout the government. But that doesn't necessarily represent a weakening of one's commitment to bilingualism or even minority language communities across the country. What are your thoughts on that?

[Graham Fraser]

I wouldn't disagree, and I certainly don't measure the strength of bilingualism by the total number of federal employees. But I think that what is also clear is that when a federal institution goes through dramatic cuts, it becomes harder to maintain the same level of service.

I had a conversation with the head of one federal agency that had gone from 450 employees to 150. He said it's just harder for them to do what they were doing before with that dramatic loss in the number of employees. So it's not a question of blind identification. It's a question of to what extent is the service available and to what extent are those institutions being considered in terms of the promotion of the equal status of both languages? I always like coming back to the elimination of the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean in 1995. It was seen as a gesture of equal cuts because Royal Roads had been eliminated. But over the last 20 years it has become increasingly difficult for the armed forces to maintain the same level of bilingualism for its officers because they simply don't have that resource. It's harder for them to recruit. It's harder for them to train officers who previously had gone to and spent several semesters in Saint-Jean.

So those kinds of reductions have to take into account the need to promote and protect both official languages and the equal status of both languages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Daniel.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, for being here again.

According to your report on plans and priorities, you were aiming for 270 promotional activities, including requests for general information and promotional tools. How do you measure the impact and the success of your promotional activities? That's the first question. Second, what is the breakdown of your promotional activities by age group? Third, how many promotional activities do you offer to new Canadians?

[Graham Fraser]

One of the difficulties in evaluating the results of promotion is that it's difficult to know what impact one has had. One of the things that I've often felt, from my interventions with ministers or government departments, is that you're never sure which finger on the button made the elevator come. Was it my intervention that led to the...? I'm referring to the complaint process rather than the promotional process, but was it my investigation that led to the government's decision to keep the maritime rescue sub-centre open in Quebec City? Was it MPs who mobilized, was it the community that mobilized, was it the minister who decided this is what needed to be in? Ultimately, it was a decision by the.... Did the Prime Minister's Office intervene? I don't know.

I know that we did our investigation and I had conversations with the fisheries department and the coast guard, but it's very difficult to.... If I've given a number of speeches, or if we've given promotional material to school children, it's difficult to know what kind of effect that's going to have. I mentioned the example of a colleague of mine who became convinced of the importance of both official languages when he was a volunteer at the Canada Games in Winnipeg as a teenager. Who knows whether the volunteers for the Canada Winter Games in Prince George, or the Canada Games in Sherbrooke, may have their minds opened to the presence and importance of both official languages? I find it very difficult.

In terms of breaking down our promotional activities, one thing that we are doing in respect to immigration, though I wouldn't say this is a promotional activity that is directed specifically at immigrants, is that we're doing a study on immigration in conjunction with the Commissioner of French Language Services in Ontario. It's one of the themes that we will be discussing in next year's annual report. I've spoken to the minister, I've met with immigrant groups across the country, both English-speaking immigrants in Quebec City and French-speaking immigrants in Toronto, Winnipeg, and Regina. It's hard to measure precisely what the impact is of those interventions, but certainly it's one of our priorities.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

How do interprovincial barriers affect minority linguistic communities? Would more consistent standards across the provinces make it easier for minority communities to attract and retain newcomers? What's your opinion?

[Graham Fraser]

That's a very good question.

I think the one thing that at least one provincial premier has raised with me is the fact that when an immigrant is received in Quebec and then decides to move to another province, the money that is dedicated per capita for settlement services does not follow that immigrant if they move to another province. We have a fair amount of mobility among immigrants. When they come to Canada they do not necessarily sink their roots in the province they first arrive in, particularly with the economic engines that we're seeing in western Canada. There is a fair amount of mobility from eastern Canada to western Canada that includes immigrants. Provinces feel that they are getting the immigrants but not getting the money that was accorded for settlement services.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you.

Mr. Nicholls.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Fraser, I would like to thank you for appearing before the committee today.

I have some questions about the CBC. Many people have criticized the Conservative and Liberal cuts to the CBC over the past two decades.

You have added your voice to the discussion, and the legislation is clear: the public broadcaster must contribute to the development of French-speaking communities across Canada. Yet, the minister seems to want to wash her hands of it.

You told a journalist with Le Devoir "The government can't wash its hands by saying that this is not its problem. ... Intervening before the courts is an option under the act."

So, my question is this: Are you preparing any recourse?

[Graham Fraser]

We are thinking about it. We haven't made a decision.

There is already a case before the courts concerning CBC/Radio-Canada and CBEF Windsor. The Federal Court of Canada rendered a decision that we greatly appreciated because it clarified the scope of Part VII of the Official Languages Act. I believe Judge Martineau's ruling just adds to what I sometimes call linguistic jurisprudence in Canada. CBC decided to appeal this ruling, which will come before the Federal Court of Appeal.

In terms of the recent announcements about cuts, we are looking at the situation. We are thinking seriously about the possibility of legal proceedings, but we haven't decided.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

May I make a suggestion, Mr. Commissioner? Could you hold a meeting with the deputy ministers involved? You could call Graham Flack, Hubert Lussier, Jean-Pierre Gauthier, Guylaine F. Roy, and the deputy ministers responsible at Finance Canada, Paul Rochon, Jean-Michel Catta and Benoit Robidoux, to inform them of their responsibilities in this respect as deputy ministers. Could the Commissioner of Official Languages do that?

[Graham Fraser]

I would have to think about it, but it is certainly something that the Standing Committee on Official Languages could do.

Following the recommendations that we have made after evaluating the departments, the committee has often decided to ask deputy ministers to appear before them, and we have seen results. You have an important tool in your hands. There is nothing like appearing before a committee to refresh people's memories and clarify the thoughts of senior officials

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I think that the offices and the deputy ministers of Canadian Heritage are aware of their obligations. However, the fact remains that this would lead to something, if we put them with deputy ministers of Finance so that they could have a dialogue. I think it would be worthwhile if you, an expert on this, gave a briefing to these people so that they could understand their obligations thoroughly.

I will move on to a question that has to do with English speakers in Quebec.

As you know, presently many anglophone groups in Quebec are worried about the implications Bill C-10 and, further down the road, the possible moves toward changing the school board system.

Have you been contacted by any of these groups? What is your responsibility, if any, in these matters?

[Graham Fraser]

I have heard those concerns. I had a number of conversations with people from the English community at the QCGN banquet, where the Goldbloom awards were given out last week. There were a number of passionate interventions, including one by my predecessor, Victor Goldbloom, on the subject of Bill 10.

We're following the situation closely. I have already had meetings with three ministers and a member of the National Assembly, and have shared some of the concerns I've heard. It's not directly within my jurisdiction.

In terms of the changes to school boards, it's my belief that there is a constitutional guarantee of school boards that was clarified by the Supreme Court in the Mahé decision, which guaranteed the right to school governance. When I raised that with someone, they said, yes, that's true, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee nine school boards; they might reduce it to one single school board for the entire English community. I think if they tried to do that, a court case would result.

In terms of those initiatives by the Quebec government, I have to say that I do not have the same kind of powers to investigate that I do with federal jurisdictions, but I follow them closely and try to represent the concerns of the minority communities as I hear them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much, Mr. Nicholls and Mr. Fraser.

Madam Crockatt.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

Bonjour, monsieur Fraser. It's nice to see you—a former journalist too. Thank you very much for this report.

I want to ask a little bit more about the area of Canadian acceptance of bilingualism. This follows on some of the questions from my colleagues as well. In recent days, as you've alluded to, we went through quite a traumatic experience here on Parliament Hill. We've all been touched by that. One of the places where there was a great show of emotion about this was in our hockey rinks. We saw the national anthem sung in those hockey rinks as one of the more overt displays of Canadianism, and it was the bilingual anthem we heard. I think it involved some 60,000 people in three of our major cities.

You've been official languages commissioner for eight years now. You've had an opportunity to see the trajectory of bilingualism and its acceptance in Canada. I'm wondering if you see that kind of overt public display, where it has actually gone beyond.... There was no government bureaucrat there, mandating that people should be singing the national anthem in both languages. Do you see a change, or how do you see that the public attitudes toward bilingualism have changed?

I might just add that I was at a memorial service for Corporal Cirillo in Calgary on the weekend, and the anthem was also sung in both languages, the bilingual version.

[Graham Fraser]

I think that's a very positive sign, and I think it does reflect what I have seen over the years. If you go further back than the eight years that I've been commissioner, there was a period in the 1970s when the use of the bilingual anthem, or the French-language version of the anthem, at hockey games provoked boos. I can remember an incident at Maple Leaf Gardens back in the seventies.

I think it is an indication of the ever-increasing acceptance of the idea that this is the public face of the country. One thing that I hope we can achieve universally—unfortunately, it often takes tragic events to bring people together around these kinds of symbols—is a state where people, all Canadians, feel a sense of ownership of both languages; where, whether they speak both languages or not, there is a sense that this is who we are as a nation; and where the presence of both languages is a marker for any kind of national celebration or national event.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

How do we measure Canadian acceptance of bilingualism?

[Graham Fraser]

Well, one of the ways we measure it is by periodically polling. I can't cite you the precise poll, but there was a poll recently that showed that over half of Canadians thought their province should be officially bilingual.

The problem that emerges with those kinds of polls is that it's never really clear exactly what people mean. When they are asked in a polling question if they support Canada's language policy or official bilingualism, it's never quite clear exactly what people understand that to mean.

I think the polls are a useful indication, but they are not sufficient to really give an indication. I think there's much more positive support for Canada's language policy now than there has been in the past.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I wonder if you could talk about what the situation is in Quebec. I think it's an important component of Canadian acceptance of bilingualism that they see both languages are also being given attention. Also, it says that you've probably been more active in Quebec than in any other province. Would you explain to us why that is?

[Graham Fraser]

I think there's often a misunderstanding about the challenges the English minority in Quebec faces. When people think of the English minority, they tend to think primarily of the people in Montreal. There are 600,000 anglophones in Montreal. If you have a critical mass of 600,000, it is possible to have employment and social institutions, and there's no problem in maintaining your educational institutions.

The other 380,000 anglophones are scattered around the vast territory of Quebec. Those communities face much greater challenges and the challenges are very similar. They're challenges that are faced by francophone minorities in western Canada.

It's an aging population. It's a population that is particular, in that the anglophone seniors in Quebec are people who made their living when it was not as necessary to speak French as it is now. They now find themselves needing to deal with social services, the hospitals, and the state, and they often don't have the language skills to be able to do that. So there's a particular kind of vulnerability that seniors in Quebec have, which is one of the reasons why we produced a document that pulled together all the federal services available for anglophone seniors in Quebec.