Official Languages Committee on Nov. 27th, 2013

[Graham Fraser]

We have wondered the same thing. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we will try to monitor the immigration file over the coming years. We have questions to ask. We will seek answers, in order to better answer this question ourselves.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

All right, thank you.

Mr. Daniel.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and my thanks to the commissioner and his staff for being here.

I'm relatively new to this portfolio and this committee, so I may ask you some really innocent-sounding questions. Please forgive me for that.

[Graham Fraser]

Those are always the hardest.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

One of the things that I understand your role to be is to sustain equality in both French and English in Canada.

[Graham Fraser]

What the mandate speaks to is the equality of status. I think some of my staff people would disagree with this, but I am not a grammarian, although I have certain obsessions with split infinitives. Anytime we get a complaint about somebody who does not speak the language well enough, I'm always a little bit hesitant to embark on that discussion.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

What is being done in the francophone communities across the country to support their ability to speak English at a reasonable level, so that things like what my colleague said with regard to health care services can actually be conducted in that province?

[Graham Fraser]

Quebec is the only province where the learning of the minority language is obligatory to the end of high school. In the minority francophone communities, there is a phrase that is often repeated. In minority language communities it is said, “We don't learn English, we catch it like a cold.”

If you look at the statistics, the level of bilingualism in minority language communities, certainly outside Quebec, is very high. In Quebec, 60% of anglophones are bilingual and 80% of anglophones between the ages of 18 and 34 are bilingual.

The challenge that minority communities have had over the years has not as much been about ensuring that the members of that community learn or speak English well; it has been about ensuring that French can thrive in their institutions. I've noticed a significant change over the last few decades with the introduction of French-language minority schools across the country, French-language school boards, French language legal associations, and the health networks that have been developed through the road maps.

There is still a challenge. There are many people in the minority francophone organizations who will say that one of the key learning points should be much more focus on early childhood education in French, to ensure that when children go to child care they learn in that language. In a pilot project in Windsor, they found that children who went to a child care program in French went on to primary and secondary school in French. It becomes a very important element for the vitality of minority communities.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

One of the other questions that comes to mind for me is that, when we looked at post-secondary education at the last committee meeting, we saw there are lots of courses at universities covering the arts, covering all sorts of management studies, etc., but in engineering I believe there are only two universities that provide technical courses in electronics, mechanical engineering, aeronautical engineering, and all those sorts of things.

Can you help me understand why engineering is not well supported in the universities, because having spoken earlier today about the expansion in the aeronautical space in Montreal, I see there is a requirement for huge numbers of engineers and designers, etc., that may not be fulfilled with this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much, Mr. Daniel.

Mr. Fraser, go ahead.

[Graham Fraser]

I think part of the challenge has been that until the 1960s, really, engineering education in Quebec happened substantially in English, even in the French language universities. It was very difficult to find text books and professors, and because engineering is a sufficiently technical field in areas where multinational companies have adopted English primarily as their language of operation, it has been a challenge.

One of the turning points for engineering education in Quebec was the expansion of Hydro Québec, acquiring the private electricity companies in Quebec in the early 1960s, which gave a huge thrust to French language engineering in Quebec. Hydro Québec, Bombardier, and CGI all continue. There was a report done for the Quebec government back in the early 1980s called Le Virage technologique, the technological turning point, which resulted in significant Quebec investment in biotechnology, computer technology, and imaging technology. So we've seen those. We've seen the growth of those areas.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fraser.

We'll go to Mr. Benskin, from Montreal.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you. Yes, and that is the home of ETS, École de technologie supérieure.

The École de technologie supérieure was one of the first engineering schools in Quebec. Furthermore, it is located in my riding.

I do want to speak quickly to the question from my honourable friend across the way with regard to learning a second language in order to get services. For me I think that's a dangerous road to travel down, because therein lies the danger of a culture losing itself.

The discussion on language is not just about language, but also about culture. Canada is founded on two cultures: the francophone culture and the anglophone culture.

With that I want to just pull something out of your report in regard to the road map and one of the concerns you raised. I'll cite this in English:

Very few funds are allocated specifically to research and the collection of reliable data in support of policy development and decision making in the area of official languages. Little effort was made to guarantee funding for research and language statistics on an ongoing basis, in particular within Statistics Canada. Such funding is crucial, however, in order to obtain a picture of the linguistic trends in the country....

I think that's a very profound statement. It's a very telling statement of the choices we make, the choices government makes, and those that we as parliamentarians make about what we offer to the linguistic minority communities, the anglophone community in Quebec and the francophone community outside of Quebec. If we don't have that information, if we don't put the resources into getting that information, how are we going to be able to get a proper picture of the status of, including the dangers faced by, the francophone community outside of Quebec and the anglophone community inside Quebec?

[Graham Fraser]

I think you've put your finger on one of the challenges that Statistics Canada has encountered with the end of the obligatory long-form census and its transformation into a voluntary census document. That has created a situation in which there are some communities in which the response rate was too low for there to be valid data.

We had a number of complaints about the abolition of the long-form census. We did an investigation, and it became clear that no federal institution had recommended the end of the long-form census. The nature of the decision was, if you like, protected by cabinet secrecy. Unfortunately, we cannot cross that boundary created by the nature of the secrecy of the cabinet system.

Even though we were not able to find a federal institution that had not met their responsibilities under the Official Languages Act in terms of the decision on the long-form census, I think it was regrettable. It has made it more difficult to have the kind of detailed information that social agencies, government agencies, community groups, and various organizations involved in social welfare of various kinds need. They need to know where those services are the most necessary.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Under the present structure, how could the current road map, or any other resource, help linguistic minorities better understand what's happening in their communities and thus continue to contribute to their survival, not as a language but as a culture?

[Graham Fraser]

Part VII of the act was amended in 2005 to ensure that all federal institutions have a binding obligation to take positive measures for the growth and development of minority language communities. For that obligation to be appropriately met, it requires consultation with minority language communities. That process of consultation is all the more important in the face of the statistical tools that have been lost—but I'm not saying that consultation can replace those statistical tools.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

If you have a brief question, go ahead.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

It's not brief.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Okay.

Thank you very much, Mr. Benskin.

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

You stated earlier that engineering firms have reaped the benefits of good business opportunities in Europe. Does the fact of having two official languages help Canada penetrate the European market more easily or is it just because Canada's engineering is superior to that of other countries?

[Graham Fraser]

I am no expert in international trade. Nonetheless, a free trade agreement with the European Union is now under way. Negotiations have not concluded nor has the agreement been ratified, but in my opinion, this agreement will allow Canadian companies to do business in Europe. In my opinion, Canadian youth and university students have increasingly international prospects.

I have always thought that learning both official languages opened the door for our youth in the international arena. I have noted that more and more young Canadians are moving in that direction and in doing so, had begun by learning the second official language, and that this process had demystified learning other languages, while helping youth acquire an awareness of other cultures. I know that international companies wish to hire Canadians because of their sensitivity to other cultures and their language skills.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

So the future is promising for our youth who speak both official languages. The fact that they add Spanish in their repertoire could contribute to opening the entire North American market to European businesses wishing to integrate themselves into a broader market and seeking candidates to do business at the global level. For a Canadian, choosing Spanish, Italian or German as a third language may be a considerable advantage.

[Graham Fraser]

I completely agree. It is undeniable, in my opinion, that learning a third language is easier than learning a second language. Learning a language is almost a physical activity; it becomes easier to learn other languages after having mastered a second one. I have always been struck by the number of young Canadians who first mastered our two official languages and then learned a third one, whether through international business opportunities, or travelling or working abroad.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

In Canada, we always talk about our two official languages, whereas other countries talk about their two or three national languages.

Would using the term “national languages” rather than “official languages” not symbolize for us a stronger recognition of these languages?

[Graham Fraser]

You raise an interesting question, which has also been discussed at our office. We noticed that the expression “national languages” was used in the Speech from the Throne. I do not have a clear answer for you as to the distinction between an official language and a national language. If we agree that certain languages are official and that others are national, which is to say limited to a certain territory, I think there may be a risk of creating hierarchy. That being said, I am just beginning to reflect upon this issue, which is why I hesitate to provide you with a clear answer.