Evidence of meeting #64 for Official Languages in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was immigration.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Florence Ngenzebuhoro  Chief Executive Officer, Centre francophone du grand Toronto
Marie-Josée Chouinard  Vice-President, International Talents and Foreign Investment, Québec International
Alain Laberge  Executive Director, Division scolaire franco-manitobaine
Aissa Nauthoo  Vice-President, Centre francophone du grand Toronto
Raymond Théberge  Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages
Isabelle Gervais  Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Assurance Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President, International Talents and Foreign Investment, Québec International

Marie-Josée Chouinard

We notice that Quebec sometimes has an advantage over the other provinces and sometimes a disadvantage. It doesn't just go one way.

When there's a reform on one side, it becomes more complex. While the docking is going on with the other side, inconsistencies can sometimes appear.

In the past, we've seen benefits on the Quebec side with, for example, the list of professions eligible for simplified processing, which expands Quebec's ability to recruit more types of professionals without having to demonstrate a labour shortage. These are examples, but there have been others in the past.

There are good things and some that are not so good. It's all relative. What's most complex, for employers, is navigating between the two systems. A lot of the information on the Canadian side is ambiguous. We end up understanding that it's not for us, because we're in Quebec. That's what makes it complicated for employers.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

We know that the federal government provides funding almost exclusively to English-language interest groups and organizations. In Quebec City, I think Voice of English-Speaking Québec is the one responsible for welcoming English-speaking immigrants and helping them integrate.

Are you aware of any organizations or programs that support French-speaking immigrants and receive funding from the federal government?

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President, International Talents and Foreign Investment, Québec International

Marie-Josée Chouinard

Yes.

Quebec is well equipped for welcoming newcomers and helping them integrate. However, it's Quebec's ministry of immigration, francization and integration that oversees those services. The federal government transfers the funding to Quebec, and Quebec sets up the co‑operation agreements with the organizations dedicated to welcoming and integrating newcomers.

Quebec is well served overall. That may not be quite as true in more remote areas, but in the national capital region, the Chaudière‑Appalaches region and other such places, the service coverage is quite good.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

As far as francophone integration is concerned, would you say it's better to recruit immigrants to regions with high concentrations of francophones or to try to regionalize immigration?

9:30 a.m.

Vice-President, International Talents and Foreign Investment, Québec International

Marie-Josée Chouinard

In our case, the French fact is a requirement, even just for day-to-day life. French is the common language, the main language spoken by people in Quebec. In addition to recruiting people from French-speaking countries, we also focus a lot on recruiting people from francotropic countries because they engage more quickly in the French learning process. We've seen that people from Latin America tend to learn French quickly because they already speak a Latin language, Spanish or Portuguese. Africa, French-speaking Europe and Latin America represent great recruitment pools for Quebec.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Ms. Ngenzebuhoro, six million people live in the greater Toronto area, and only 80,000 have French as their first language. Less than 40,000 speak mostly French at home. Toronto doesn't have a French quarter. The community is spread out, and the assimilation rate among francophones in Toronto is more than 50%.

What do you think is the most effective way to get French-speaking immigrants integrated without losing their francophone identity, be it in the first or second generation?

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

Please keep your answer under 15 seconds.

9:30 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Centre francophone du grand Toronto

Florence Ngenzebuhoro

I think it would be to bring them together in one community. Right now, we are working on developing a francophone village or district in the greater Toronto area. The answer would be to bring them together in one place where they can find their identity within the anglophone tidal wave of Toronto.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

Thank you, Ms. Ngenzebuhoro.

Before we go to Ms. Ashton, who is joining us from Manitoba, we need to do a sound check.

Can you say a few words, Ms. Ashton?

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Good morning. I hope you can hear me fine. I'm very glad to be here today. Hopefully, the sound quality is good and I will be able to ask you my questions in just a moment.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

That's great, Ms. Ashton. You may go ahead for six minutes.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Thank you to the witnesses for joining us this morning to participate in this very important study.

It's very disappointing to hear that, although we all recognize that francophone immigration is essential to the country's future, the government hasn't found a way to support you in ensuring that families are properly welcomed so that they feel at home quickly. The government doesn't seem to realize that the country desperately needs their contribution.

The first issue I want to discuss is the education labour shortage, which is clearly impacting French-language learning outside Quebec and immersion programs. My first question is for Mr. Laberge, from the Franco-Manitoban school division.

Can you talk about the labour shortage and the huge demand from families who want their children to be educated in French?

How important is it for the federal government to prioritize recruiting and supporting those whom we want to come to Canada so they can teach our children and future generations?

9:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Division scolaire franco-manitobaine

Alain Laberge

Thank you, Ms. Ashton. I'm very glad you brought that up.

The lack of staff is huge. You hear a lot about the shortage of teachers, but we also need education aides and principals. If Quebec has more than 300 vacant positions right now, imagine how hard it is for a town like Thompson—which is a seven-hour drive from Winnipeg—to get teachers and staff to settle there and keep the community alive.

Let's be clear. Schools are somewhat the epicentre of French life in small northern communities. That's why we prioritized community schools. Some of their funding comes from the federal government, but it's not enough to support the transition of those families. We recruit them, but once they arrive in Thompson or St. Lazare, we can't turn our backs on them. We have to continue helping them integrate into the community, and that takes a lot of time and money. I know money isn't always our favourite topic, but at a certain point, attracting these families requires money.

What's more, there is little recognition of credentials. We also look for candidates in Africa and Latin America, but once they're in Canada, it usually takes a very long time for them to become permanent residents, so they often go elsewhere. The credential recognition process is a real maze. The five, six, seven or eight teachers we might be able to get can't be hired as teachers until their credentials are recognized in Canada. That usually means they have to go back to school, so supporting them in that process is also very important.

The other thing is we have to recruit people directly from those countries and not lie to them. Instead, we need to sell them on the natural beauty Manitoba has to offer. We can sell nature lovers and hikers on our fishing and hunting. We can sell them on northern, eastern and western Manitoba. To do that, though, we have to go to Africa to recruit those people and provide federal support for the whole permanent residency and visa process, so they can have a good life. Otherwise, they have to start at the bottom.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Thank you.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on early childhood education. The Franco-Manitoban school division has day cares. The demand for French-language day care spots is growing not just in Manitoba. The lack of staff is shocking.

Can you talk about that? What does the federal government need to do?

9:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Division scolaire franco-manitobaine

Alain Laberge

This year, we had to close one of our day cares in St‑Georges for a few months because we didn't have the staff.

When you close a day care, you alienate part of the French-language education continuum. When children enter our school system, early childhood education plays a very important role in setting up their academic journeys, especially in a minority community. When there isn't a francophone day care, parents send their kids to an anglophone day care. That's where children socialize, meet English-speaking friends and form a new circle, and they end up doing their schooling in English.

As a minority group, we are much harder hit by the shortage than anglophones.

The federal government can help by making programs flexible so that people can keep working while they go after the credits they need. That is very important at a community level. Some of the people we hire have a grade 12 education and they want to take classes, but those classes are only given during the day. It makes no sense. People have to put food on the table, and that means they have to work. If they're working, they can't go to school in the day, so they need some flexibility.

The federal government could even make distance-learning classes available to help people from other countries get their credentials, so we could bring them on board right away.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Thank you.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

Thank you, Mr. Laberge.

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

We're running low on time, and the commissioner will be here for the second hour. What I'm going to do for the next round is give the Liberal and Conservative members three minutes, instead of five, and give the Bloc Québécois and NDP members a minute and a half. I'm trying to be fair.

Starting off the round is Gérard Deltell.

Go ahead, Mr. Deltell. You have three minutes.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here.

I'm very proud and happy to be participating in this morning's meeting.

Mr. Chair, exactly four years ago today, Quebec passed its state secularism law, the much talked-about Bill 21. At the time, some argued that it would affect immigration because certain people might not feel comfortable coming to Quebec and would choose to settle somewhere else in Canada.

I'm going to ask Alain Laberge, the executive director of the Franco-Manitoban school division, this question first.

Mr. Laberge, in the past four years—so since Quebec brought in its state secularism law—have you seen an impact on francophone immigration? I'm talking about people from Maghreb, other parts of Africa or other parts of the world who chose to settle somewhere other than Quebec because of Bill 21?

9:40 a.m.

Executive Director, Division scolaire franco-manitobaine

Alain Laberge

I don't have any data that would indicate whether people chose Manitoba over Quebec. I would like to think people make informed decisions, but I can't really know what they're thinking. We focus a lot of our recruitment efforts on the places you mentioned, but we don't tell people about Bill 21 or anything like that. I'm not political. I'm an administrator.

We don't have those data. However, considering how many newcomers we hire, I would be very surprised if they were people who had left Quebec for Manitoba.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

It's less about people leaving Quebec and more about people who come to Canada and choose not to settle in Quebec because of Bill 21, as some had argued. In other words, they went somewhere else to speak French and live their lives in French, somewhere where there was no Bill 21.

Now I have the same question for Florence Ngenzebuhoro.

From what you've seen in the past four years, has Bill 21 had an impact on francophone immigration in Toronto?

9:40 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Centre francophone du grand Toronto

Florence Ngenzebuhoro

Thank you for your question.

I'm going to pass that question over to my colleague Aissa.

9:40 a.m.

Vice-President, Centre francophone du grand Toronto

Madam Aissa Nauthoo

Thank you.

We can refer to the figures and data collected on newcomers arriving at Pearson airport, as well as information from settlement services that handle newcomer referrals and needs assessments. I don't have those statistics either. I can tell you, however, that there has been a change in the home countries of certain newcomers who are received or served at the airport.

The data we have on newcomers from Maghreb countries, so countries where women wear a veil, and even some African countries, show a change when it comes to people settling in Toronto and Ottawa. For example, people from Lebanon and Morocco tended to settle in Ontario as opposed to other parts of Canada, including Quebec.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

Thank you, Ms. Nauthoo.

Sorry to cut you off, but I have to enforce the time limits. I realize that three minutes isn't much time. You may have another opportunity to provide more information.

We now go to Darrell Samson for three minutes.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Three minutes isn't even enough time to set up a question.

I don't have much time, Mr. Laberge. The chair is being strict this morning, so I will get right to my questions.

I had questions for you as well, Ms. Ngenzebuhoro, but I'll call you this afternoon instead.

9:40 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Centre francophone du grand Toronto