We seem to have found that in departments that are problematic—Indian and Northern Affairs in the past while has been problematic—the turnover rate is much higher. In fact, I can't remember exactly what the average is for deputy ministers, but it was quite low, and it was skewed because at Census Canada you had someone there for 20 years, so the actual numbers are below these numbers.
I find three or four years to be not a very long time, especially when I take into context Mr. Wouters' testimony before us. He said that when he was first made deputy minister, it took him really about two years just to figure out the department.
Prior to Prime Minister Trudeau's time in office, what was the timeframe? Was it three or four years, five years, seven years?