Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 7th, 2006

[Ian Bennett]

Mr. Chair, I'm not interpreting the question at all that way. I'm just trying to make sure that members understand the process here. So were those numbers accurate? Clearly, in retrospect, they were not.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's right in the RFP. I'll come to the armed forces in a moment in terms of the information, how you provided it, etc., but this is in the RFP. You've already had a pilot. And sometime I hope to come back to this initial business of conflict of interest, because not all of us are familiar with that. At that point you had a huge problem, you looked at the whole thing again, and yet you still allowed within the RFP factual inconsistencies. You don't need to be an insider in the armed forces bureaucracy to understand that it's hard to get 60% of the applications that are going to require a certain service and 40% won't, when 60% of that population base would never need the service. It's in the documentation, before we even get into the bidding details.

How could you possibly have done an initial pilot project, reviewed the pilot project, had a huge problem in terms of an apparent conflict of interest, and you still ended up with an obvious inconsistency in the RFP? Given the fact that you had such a team, it makes it even more wondrous.

[Ian Bennett]

To answer the question, Mr. Chair, these issues with the property management volumes and the estimates hadn't come to the surface in any of the previous processes. Obviously, had they come to the surface or had there been any indication that they were not accurate, it would have been corrected.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

My question was why, though. I understand the problem, sir, but I was seeking why was it in there as part of the template of the RFP. You didn't have to analyze much to just look at your own RFP and say wait a minute, how can 60% of 40% equal more?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay, we'll be back to you, Mr. Christopherson.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Are you going to allow him to answer that question, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I think he's answered before.

Did you want to elaborate, Mr. Bennett? Do you have anything to elaborate on that last statement or question? Do you have anything to say?

[Ian Bennett]

Not at this time, Mr. Chair.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

A mea culpa would be nice, Mr. Chair.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, that's right. Somebody should take some responsibility around here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Ms. Ratansi, eight minutes.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Madam Auditor General and the team, for being here.

I will ask brisk questions and hope I get succinct, brisk, real answers.

Exhibit 5.2 of your report sets out key responsibilities for the integrated relocation program. As an auditor, are you satisfied that program supplies or provides enough checks and balances for the process, or do you have concerns?

[Sheila Fraser]

I would say that I think generally the process is adequate. I think, though, that what this case demonstrates--and that's perhaps an issue we should look at in an effort to improve things going forward--is when suppliers raise concerns, who has the responsibility to actually validate the information? I think there can be a bit of confusion between the departments and Public Works. What is the responsibility of Public Works to ensure the equity and the fairness of the process? Over and above simply following a process, do they have a greater responsibility? I think that is where there may be some disagreement between us and the department.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

So I'll ask you the question, did you see clearly defined roles and responsibilities, or accountability, as you reviewed this process?

[Sheila Fraser]

I'll ask Mr. Sloan to respond to that.

[Bruce Sloan, Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The roles and responsibilities were set out in the RFP documents and in the contracts, and responsibilities are set out in Public Works' supply manual for their role for the fairness, integrity, and equity of the process throughout. I think there's clearly some responsibility with departments to provide actual business volumes that are accurate in the initial instance.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Where did the buck stop at the department?

[Bruce Sloan]

We had difficulty identifying who had developed the business volumes. I think, from our point of view, we saw them stated in the RFP. When we checked to see if they were valid, we came up with the 183. To get a clear person who had signed off on the specs, we had not seen that.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Could Mr. Pile tell us who was responsible for providing such figures?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

It was probably a combination of various sections within military personnel command, where we monitor the careers of Canadian Forces members and can therefore track the number of moves made each year.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

But there must be one person responsible. Do you have a manager who's responsible for ensuring this information is accurate as it flows upward?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

Yes, it's the director general, military careers.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

And who would that be?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

It's currently Colonel Simard.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Was he there when this process was taking place?