Evidence of meeting #72 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brown.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:55 p.m.
Independent Investigator into RCMP Pension and Insurance Matters, Office of the Independent Investigator into RCMP Pension and Insurance Matters
I could tell you what ours costs. I don't know what a public inquiry would cost.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Somebody tells me it was $80 million for Gomery. I'm not sure that's the right number, but....
2:55 p.m.
Independent Investigator into RCMP Pension and Insurance Matters, Office of the Independent Investigator into RCMP Pension and Insurance Matters
I can't tell you.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
—thank you very much, Mr. Poilievre.
Just as one minor issue, Mr. Brown, I might get you to identify the other members of the task force who are serving with you.
2:55 p.m.
Independent Investigator into RCMP Pension and Insurance Matters, Office of the Independent Investigator into RCMP Pension and Insurance Matters
Certainly. We are five, as you know, Chair, and I'll go from east to west.
Larry Murray is one of our members of the task force. Many of you may know Larry Murray. He's a former deputy minister, having just taken retirement a couple of months ago. I think his last posting was as Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. He has a long history with the military, and part of his responsibilities in Fisheries and Oceans involved the coast guard.
Richard Drouin, who was for a good part of his working career the CEO and chair of Hydro-Québec, has since retiring from that taken on a number of business initiatives, and he sits on a number of boards of directors. He also has served on one of the Quebec police oversight organizations. So he brings to the task force not only business acumen and knowledge of what happens in a boardroom, but some experience with oversight of police.
Norman Inkster, who's a former Commissioner of the RCMP, is a member of the task force. He's been consulting on police matters for police services since he retired.
Linda Black, who is a lawyer from Calgary, also sits on a police services board in Calgary. She's actually a native of Newfoundland and grew up and practised law in Newfoundland, but has been living in Calgary.
And of course there's me.
Those are the five of us. I'm very pleased with the range of backgrounds and skill sets we have at the table. Norman Inkster is the only member I had met before. In fact, we didn't as a group know one another, but we're interacting well, and the perspectives that are being brought to the table, I think, will really serve us well.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
2:55 p.m.
Independent Investigator into RCMP Pension and Insurance Matters, Office of the Independent Investigator into RCMP Pension and Insurance Matters
At the present time, we are driving towards December 14. Our mandate ends December 31, but there's a hiatus there. We realize that to bring forward a report during that hiatus just wouldn't make sense, so we're driving to have a report available by December 14, which is the middle Friday in December.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Mr. Brown, on behalf of the committee, I want to thank you very much for being here today. We certainly wish you well as you continue your efforts on the task force. We look forward to hearing from you again.
2:55 p.m.
Independent Investigator into RCMP Pension and Insurance Matters, Office of the Independent Investigator into RCMP Pension and Insurance Matters
Thank you, Chair.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Colleagues, we'll take a five-minute adjournment, and we'll resume again.
3 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I want to first of all welcome everyone back. This is the last session of these two days of meetings we have held regarding the RCMP pension and insurance plans.
We're very pleased, colleagues, to have with us this afternoon the Minister of Public Safety, Mr. Stockwell Day.
Thank you, Minister, for coming to the committee. I understand that you do not have a formal opening statement, but you have a few opening remarks that you would like to address to the committee. If so, I invite you to present them to the committee.
September 7th, 2007 / 3 p.m.
Okanagan—Coquihalla B.C.
Conservative
Stockwell Day ConservativeMinister of Public Safety
Mr. Chair, I would just like to say that I appreciate the work of this committee and its members, and I look forward to their questions.
3 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
That's what you would call a brief opening statement.
We're going to follow the same format as we did in the last meeting, colleagues. We're going to have one round of seven minutes.
We'll go to Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.
3 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I'd like to start off by thanking Mr. Lake for his compliment. As elected officials, we have a duty and an obligation to the electorate when we hear serious allegations of this sort to act upon them. In fact, the duty and responsibility for that are that much greater for a minister of the Crown, especially for the Minister of Public Safety.
My first question to you, Minister, is this: when did you first hear of these serious allegations arising out of the RCMP pension and insurance funds?
3 p.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
Well, in the mass of briefings that a new minister gets upon assuming a portfolio, which begin the first day and I presume don't cease until the last day the minister is on the job...that decision, of course, is up to the Prime Minister, or my constituents, or a combination of the two. Briefings are massive and necessary and intensive.
I would say it would definitely have been after a few months on the job when I became aware, when it was brought to my attention that the matter was under consideration by the Auditor General. As a matter of fact, I discussed it with the Auditor General before she appeared here. I also raised the issue with then Commissioner Zaccardelli. That would have been sometime after the middle of the fall of 2006. Sometime in the fall of 2006 I questioned the commissioner of the day on the issue and also on what his sense of it was. So it was sometime in the latter part of 2006.
3:05 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Perhaps you weren't aware of this, but in fact one of your caucus colleagues back in April 2004 had a lot of this information. In fact, he asked very pointed questions. It was Mr. Sorenson, in the House of Commons, and on that point he said:
Mr. Speaker, for almost a year the RCMP commissioner knew about the misappropriation of moneys from the RCMP pension funds. In fact, it was that commissioner who shut down the initial probe...
He goes on to state:
Mr. Speaker, the RCMP commissioner's job is to defend and protect past and present members of the force, not to run defence...
This seems to indicate there may have been a cover-up. This is back as far as 2004. Why were there no concrete actions? In fact, in the fall—you mentioned the fall of last year—it appeared for months that it was no longer tenable to keep Mr. Zaccardelli on the job. You were the decision-maker, or in fact were you receiving instructions from the Prime Minister to keep Mr. Zaccardelli on the job notwithstanding how untenable it was at that point in time?
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
No, not at all.
I'm sorry, I didn't follow the first part of your question. You said a Conservative member had raised in 2004 that they thought a Liberal cover-up was going on. I know that was a sense that was largely shared by many people, including Liberals, so could you just redefine that question?
3:05 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
No, it wasn't a Liberal cover-up. What it does indicate, sir, is that as far back as 2004 you were aware of this fact and aware of the fact that there were concerns that the commissioner may not have been acting appropriately. You were made minister. You received briefings, as you've said, fulsome briefings. I would suspect that you would have much greater information than we have. It is your responsibility, as a minister of the Crown. You did not act in the fall. In fact, there is a letter—and the communications went on and on—from a law firm of December 6 of alleged cover-ups of potential criminal activities. It was sent to you and copied to the Prime Minister. These are very serious allegations. There wasn't a response to this letter.
Yesterday someone--I think it was Mr. Fitzpatrick--talked of a situation of do nothing, say nothing. In fact, that's incorrect. Something did occur. Your colleagues here for months blocked our ability to bring witnesses and evidence forward, and it wasn't until the spring, when we had done our work, that you acted. Why did you not act when this information was brought forward to you? It is difficult to believe you didn't have greater amounts of information, more fulsome information, than we did.
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
I find the questioning somewhat curious, interesting. In your remarks you talked about a Conservative member raising the possibility of a Liberal cover-up of something that had been going on, apparently for years--
3:05 p.m.
Liberal
3:05 p.m.
Conservative
Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC
--so I'm curious about what you were doing with all the information, which I did not have, in the years that you were sitting there and you knew about this. I'm curious. If I could just--