You want to be careful.
Evidence of meeting #24 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was move.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #24 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was move.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
I will be careful. I'm sorry, maybe it isn't vested, but it seems that he has such a personal interest I thought for sure he'd be here today.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I guess the bell has rung. But it seems peculiar.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
You probably exhausted your questions about a minute ago.
Mr. Fitzpatrick, I understand you're sharing with Mr. Sweet.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Yes, I'll split with Mr. Sweet.
Thank you very much, Mr. Bard, for your insightful testimony today.
On the process for leases, when the leases come up it's my understanding that the practice--as you understand it, when you were working for Mr. Gagliano as public works minister--is at the front end of the process. You would consult with the client to make sure that the client really desired a move or there was a need for a move, and that's at the beginning of the process. Is that correct, sir?
11:50 a.m.
As an Individual
That's correct. And we believe it was part of our responsibility, working for the Minister of Public Works, to make sure that the concerned minister wanted to move--or not.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
That's fine, I understand that. To me it makes perfectly good sense.
In your practice, once you're finished the initial procedure and the process is in work, it would be very unusual for Mr. Gagliano's office--in your experience--to then intervene in the process toward the end of the whole process or maybe even after the process had run its course. That would be highly unusual, wouldn't it, sir?
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Okay, thank you very much. That's my question. You gave my answer. Thank you very much. I'll let Mr. Sweet carry on from here.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I certainly understand the feelings of Mr. Christopherson, of the frustration on this, and I certainly don't agree with Mr. Hubbard that this was some insignificant issue. So I'll try to see if I can motivate your memory again.
You testified that you dealt with Janice Cochrane. Is that correct?
11:50 a.m.
As an Individual
I testified that I dealt with Mrs. Beal, and Mrs. Beal's superior was Mrs. Cochrane. As Mrs. Cochrane said in her own testimony, she never attended any of these meetings because she would only attend meetings where the minister was present, not the political staff.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Okay. Now, maybe you could explain something to me. Ms. Cochrane, on July 31, 2001, clearly stated in a memo: “In this context, we had nothing to justify submitting to you a request for approval to negotiate directly with the owner of 800 Place Victoria.” And then later she states that in fact they were seeking authorization to award the lease to this very same place. And all of a sudden, in the next e-mail she feels that it's very much a good practice to negotiate directly.
Could you tell me how that change of mind came about?
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
As an Individual
I don't know how Mrs. Cochrane got her information. She got her information probably through the people who were subordinate to her own organigramme, in French. I'm sorry, I can't think of the English word.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Correct, and you testified that you met with Carole Beal and that was where she would get her information from. Is that not correct?
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
So that's why I'm asking you, when the process started, before any intervention, it was not good for the crown to negotiate directly with 800 Place Victoria, but then after the intervention from your office, all of a sudden it was okay.
11:50 a.m.
As an Individual
No. The intervention, as you say, from the minister's office was strictly to ascertain that the client minister was willing to move. For the rest, we didn't get involved in anything else than that.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Well, lastly, Mr. Bard, because your memory is not working for you here on this one, maybe--
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
Sir, I take offence. You've been mentioning that four or five times so far, that my memory doesn't serve me or doesn't serve your answers.
Sir, I'm doing my best here to give you all of the information. I'm trying to say what happened when Mr. Cauchon was minister, what happened when Mr. Drouin was minister, what happened when Mr. Gagliano was minister, and what happened when Mr. Goodale was minister.
I haven't been sitting with you, gentlemen, but in front of you you have all of the information. There's a lack of willingness to be able to accept the truth.
So don't put my words into doubt. I'm testifying, as I did in any prior committees, under oath. So I disagree with your approach.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Well, Mr. Bard, I find it difficult to understand why you would be offended when I'm simply repeating what you said. You said you didn't remember.
11:55 a.m.
As an Individual
No, no. You're not repeating; you're inferring. That's different.