Evidence of meeting #14 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was progress.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Scott Vaughan  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'd like to call the meeting to order. Bienvenue à tous.

Colleagues, this meeting is called pursuant to the Standing Orders to deal with the 2009 status report of the Auditor General of Canada and the status report of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. The committee is very pleased to have before us this afternoon the Auditor General, Sheila Fraser. She's accompanied by assistant auditors general Richard Flageole and Hugh McRoberts, and we have the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Mr. Scott Vaughan.

On behalf of all members of the committee, I want to welcome each of you.

Today we're going to deal with the five chapters that were tabled on Tuesday of this week, March 31, from the Office of the Auditor General. The members may wish to deal with the two chapters tabled by the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. Welcome.

I'm going to ask both the Auditor General and Mr. Vaughan to start, if they wish, with their opening comments.

Ms. Fraser.

3:30 p.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We're very pleased to be here today to present our 2009 status report, which was tabled in the House of Commons on March 31. As you mentioned, I am accompanied by assistant auditors general Hugh McRoberts and Richard Flageole and by Scott Vaughan, the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. Our report revisits seven issues that have been discussed in my recent reports or those of the commissioner.

Status Reports are particularly important because they show what the departments and agencies have done to address recommendations from a selection of our past audits. In determining whether progress is satisfactory or unsatisfactory, we take into account the complexity and significance of the issues and the amount of time that has passed since the original audit.

I am pleased to say that of the seven topics revisited this year, the commissioner and I found satisfactory progress in five. Let me begin with the three from my report.

First, Passport Services. In 2007, with the first phase of the United States Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative, Passport Canada found itself unprepared for the overwhelming number of passport applications from Canadians wanting to fly to the United States.

Our follow-up audit focused on Passport Canada's progress in preparing for a rise in the volume of passport applications leading up to June 2009, when Canadians will need a passport to enter the United States by land or sea.

We are pleased at the extensive action Passport Canada has taken to fix the problems it had with the last surge in demand and to be better prepared for the next one. It conducted “lessons learned” exercises to identify the causes of the problem, built and equipped a new processing and printing centre for mail-in applications, took steps to streamline the processing of walk-in applications, and hired more staff.

It also opened passport clinics in selected communities, revamped its website, and launched a major communication campaign encouraging Canadians to apply for passports well ahead of the June 2009 deadline.

Passport Canada has put a lot of effort into correcting the problems it had with a sudden increase in demand for passports. Time will tell whether Canadians heed its advice to act early.

I'll turn now to the issue of national security. In 2004, we reported that intelligence management across the government was deficient in many areas, from setting priorities to coordinating and sharing information between departments and agencies. This time we found satisfactory progress in managing security intelligence. For example, the government has taken measures to improve the reliability of watch lists of individuals considered of interest to intelligence organizations. It reduced its fingerprint backlog and is progressing in its development of a computerized system to analyze digitized fingerprints.

We also found progress in the organization and coordination of priorities among federal departments and agencies involved in security. For example, the government made progress on developing an integrated secure system that allows the sharing of intelligence information among federal organizations.

We recognize the efforts made so far to resolve the problems we found in previous audits, but there are still important areas where concrete action and leadership are needed.

Transport Canada and the RCMP are still not sharing criminal intelligence information effectively. In granting security clearances to individuals working at airports, Transport Canada does not check all criminal intelligence data banks. It could still be granting clearances to high-risk individuals for access to restricted areas at airports. Furthermore, a number of departments and agencies have cited legal barriers to sharing information with each other.

In the world of security intelligence, information sharing is critical. And where there are legal constraints, the government needs to find a way of resolving them.

Also in this report, we looked at whether Indian and Northern Affairs Canada made progress since our 2005 audit in converting lands to reserves for first nations in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Conversions of land are part of fulfilling Canada's century-old obligations to provide land owed to first nations under treaties.

First Nations in Manitoba and Saskatchewan are among the most impoverished in Canada, and acquiring land could serve as a means of improving their standard of living. In the last three years, the department has converted more than 315,000 acres of land to reserves in those provinces: a 42% increase since our audit in 2005. It also increased its efforts to coordinate environmental assessments and surveys of selected land.

Meeting Canada's obligations to provide lands owed to first nations will require a significant ongoing effort. The department will need to resolve the management weaknesses we identified in order to sustain the progress of the last three years and meet a 2006 government commitment.

Now let me turn to the areas where we found unsatisfactory progress in implementing recommendations from previous reports. In these two areas, the problems are long-standing.

The first is the process for making GIC, or Governor in Council, appointments to federal organizations. A GIC appointment is made by the cabinet and formally signed by the Governor General following the recommendation of the minister responsible for the organization. The Privy Council Office oversees the administration of the GIC appointment process.

We found that there are still long delays in making GIC appointments to crown corporations, small federal entities, and the Immigration and Refugee Board. The high number of continuing vacancies on the Immigration and Refugee Board has contributed significantly to the backlog of refugee claims waiting to be heard. Delays in making appointments can compromise an organization's ability to function effectively. And I am especially concerned about the consequences for the Immigration and Refugee Board, given the high financial, social, and human costs resulting from the board's backlog of unresolved claims.

We also found serious communication problems about appointments and reappointments. Some chairs and CEOs learned of their appointments through the media, and in some cases directors learned at a board meeting that they had been replaced days earlier.

Poor communication shows a lack of respect for the individuals involved. These are important positions, and the problems we identified could discourage qualified people from accepting them.

The second area of unsatisfactory progress concerns the way the Canada Revenue Agency deals with the risk that some small and medium enterprises might not comply with tax laws.

Businesses that don't report all their income deprive the government of revenues to fund programs for all Canadians. CRA has an important role of ensuring fairness by identifying those with unreported income.

We found that CRA needs to do a better job at targeting businesses to audit for unreported income. For example, the agency audited a far higher proportion of low-risk tax returns than those rated as high risk by its computerized risk assessment system, and about half of its underground economy audits over the past five years did not detect any unreported income.

On a more positive note, though, the CRA conducted a major review to identify all threats to the tax base, and it has increased its outreach activities to promote compliance and taxpayer awareness of what the underground economy costs society. The Canada Revenue Agency has taken some important steps forward, but it needs to resolve the long-standing weaknesses we point out in our report.

In conclusion, you will note two areas in which the government has disagreed with us. The Canada Revenue Agency does not agree with our overall conclusion. The Privy Council Office believes that our audit report on GIC appointments goes beyond the Auditor General's mandate. I am confident that our position is sound on both counts.

Audits, by their nature, focus on areas that need improvement, and I am very pleased that the government has made progress in most of the areas we revisited this year.

Before answering the committee's questions, I would propose that the commissioner present the findings from his two audits.

3:40 p.m.

Scott Vaughan Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The two environmental issues that we cover in this report are fundamental to life: the safety of the water we drink and the quality of the air we breathe.

In the area of drinking water, federal guidelines established the maximum acceptable concentration of contaminants in tap water in order to protect human health. Developing guidelines for the safety of the water we drink is an important federal activity.

In 2005 we reported that Health Canada was slow to develop and to review its guidelines. At that time there was a backlog of about 50 that needed to be reviewed and, if necessary, to be updated to reflect current science. Since then the department has largely cleared the backlog. I am pleased that Health Canada has also set up a process to update the guidelines regularly on the basis of scientific information and to produce new ones as needed.

Health Canada has also made progress toward verifying that drinking water on airplanes is safe. However, it still needs to close some gaps before it can assure Canadians that drinking water is safe on all common carriers under federal responsibility.

I turn now to the air quality health index. The AQHI, as it is commonly known, is a snapshot of air quality at a given location. It combines three key pollutants that affect human health and need to be monitored across Canada. Like the UV index, the AQHI will help individual Canadians make informed decisions about outdoor activity.

We found that Environment Canada and Health Canada have made satisfactory progress in developing the AQHI, a commitment that was cited in their responses to petitions submitted by the public in 2002 and 2003. At the time of our audit, the Index had been piloted at several locations across Canada.

Our audit found that Health Canada and Environment Canada consulted widely with stakeholders at every stage of the initiative. In fact, the government's approach to consultation in this case is a good example for other programs.

In conclusion, the elements of success that we identified in the areas of drinking water safety and the development of an air quality health index include public consultation and a strong scientific foundation.

Mr. Chair, we'll be happy to answer your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Vaughan, and thank you, Ms. Fraser.

We're going to go now to the first round of seven minutes each. Ms. Crombie, you have seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Thank you.

I want to say welcome to the Office of the Auditor General. Auditor General, it's always a pleasure to see you. I want to thank you again for the thoroughness and diligence with which you do your job.

I'm going to focus my questioning on two of the chapters, and I think my colleague will probably look at some of the others. I'm going to focus first on chapter 3, on small and medium enterprises; then, when the clerk gives me the signal, I'll move over to chapter 2, on Governor in Council appointments.

On the first one, I have a real concern that previous recommendations are not being followed and that there's a large potential for unreported revenue. We see that in previous unsatisfactory reports progress has not been made in some of the key areas aimed at improving how the agency assesses the risk of non-compliance, and also with targeted files for audit of unreported income, and also that the core audits are not addressed.

We see that 50% of the audits over the five past years are still not detecting unreported income and that the amount of unreported income has continued to be constant at about $500 million. Staff are still looking at low-risk files: 56% of the files that are audited are still only returning about 39% of the tax revenue. Staff are not using the agency's computerized risk assessment system. They have failed to strengthen the core audits. And they're not targeting audits—and we know that targeted audits are four times more effective.

I would like to ask you for some of the reasons why the staff are still proportionately auditing the low-risk files that probably don't generate as much as some of the higher-risk files do. We know that 56% of the files return only 39% of the tax recoveries.

Also, in dollar figures, what do you think is being missed by going after the low-hanging fruit of these low-risk files while some of the high-risk non-compliants are relatively untouched? How much unreported revenue do you think we're leaving on the table?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Thank you, Chair.

As for the reasons as to why the lower-risk files are being disproportionately audited, I'm not sure that we received a very comprehensive explanation to that. It might be something the committee would wish to discuss with the agency. We were given a couple of reasons. One is that some of the staff may not have confidence in the computerized risk assessment system. One of the recommendations we have had, which is a repeat recommendation, is that they should be reviewing the criteria and updating the criteria. This is why it's important that they do, as well, those kinds of baseline audits across the system to see if there are any particular conditions that they're not including in the risk assessment system, and to analyze that.

The other explanation we're getting is that some of the agents may be less experienced and not able to deal with the more complex files. If that is the case, then obviously the agency has to do something to address it, because our main concern in this whole audit is the targeting of the files for audit and that they should be targeting the higher-risk files for their procedures.

As to the amount of money that might be not recovered, we have no estimate of that. I don't believe the agency has. Obviously, there have been many studies about the potential dollar value of the underground economy, but the amounts could be significant.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Thank you. I'll move on to the other chapters, since we're almost out of time.

The appointment process has been characterized by a lack of timeliness, accountability and transparency, I would say, and you've outlined a number of the problems, including the timeliness of appointment, vacancy filling, the appointees serving past their terms, communication not being optimal. The IRB has unusually high turnover rates and vacancy rates, which leads to delays in decision-making and a large number of unprocessed claims and uncertainty for claimants. It's a governance issue, and it's one I'm concerned about, because we're placing very senior people to make decisions, and decisions that impact the health and safety and quality of life of Canadians.

With respect to these delays in appointments, is there the potential to compromise the governance and functioning of these agencies? Why hasn't it been resolved? Are you concerned that it hasn't been resolved and addressed?

I'll start there.

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

We are concerned. This is, I believe, the third audit we have done on the appointment process generally. We did note some improvement at one point, but the situation would appear to be back where it was with the initial audit.

There are impacts on organizations, crown corporations. Directors can continue to serve past their appointment period, which allows them to continue to function, because otherwise they probably would not have quorum at board meetings and so would not be able to function as boards of directors, but I think we can all understand that it's not a good thing to have people continuing on indefinitely without a term.

The Immigration and Refugee Board, I think, is a pretty clear example. With the increase in the backlog, it will probably be somewhere in the order of three years before a case coming in today can be heard by the board, which makes it of course a very difficult process for the individual concerned and is also costly to society.

So why these appointments aren't being made, quite frankly, I don't know. But that might be something the committee would want to take up.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Has the minister ever responded as to the root cause of what is causing these delays? Also, just quickly because I know I'm probably out of time, would having a public appointments commissioner, as envisioned in the Federal Accountability Act, have improved the process?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Certainly for the Immigration and Refugee Board I have been informed that the board is over 80% complete, as we speak. There have been a number of appointments in recent times. That should help to improve things over time, though it does take anywhere from six months to a year for someone to become effective in that role.

We certainly view the creation of the commission as a positive step. Many countries around the world, and many provinces, have such an organization that would help screen candidates, propose candidates for positions. There is still, though, as we note, in many of the organizations--for example, the Immigration and Refugee Board--a process in place; it's just the question of appointments not being made in a timely manner. I'm not sure if a commission would resolve that, but I think it would help in the transparency and the selection process of candidates.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mrs. Crombie.

Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

Madame Faille, sept minutes s'il vous plaît.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am going to focus my questions on governor in council appointments. I know that I have already asked you several questions on this, but we were in camera at the time. I would like you to share your comments with the committee.

Your report highlights the creation of the new section devoted to the IRB. You seem dissatisfied with the progress of this government entity. Despite recommendations made in 2000 and 2005, the problems identified in 1997 have still not been resolved. Your recommendations were not acted upon.

What recommendations did the department not follow up on?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

At the time, the main recommendations dealt with the process. In this report, we note an improvement in the board's process. I would say that the process is even stricter today. A written examination must be administered, and there are more evaluations of the candidates. However, the difficulty lies in the fact that the vacancy rate is quite high and that the situation has gone on for a quite some time; this has created a very significant backlog.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

In your report, you clearly identified on a graph the point in time when the backlog of claims began increasing exponentially. Today, the backlog is even larger than it was in 2004. What is the direct impact of this backlog?

We all understand how bogged down the system is for refugee claims, and are aware of the long waiting times for immigration appeals, mainly longer delays for family and spousal reunification.

This situation is having a major impact on the processing of refugee claims. Can you say a little bit about that?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

The number of cases has increased considerably. Exhibit 2.4 shows that the total number of authorized positions at the board has decreased over the years. That is due in part to the fact that the board has made progress in reducing the backlog, which led to a decrease in the number of board members required.

However, at present, the backlog is still between 54,000 and 55,000 cases. A full complement of experienced members can process approximately 25,000 per year. If we assume that the oldest cases are processed first, it could take three years to process a claim received today. It is, of course, very likely that a person in that situation will put down roots in Canada over that three-year period and create links here, so that it is increasingly difficult to remove them.

This situation also generates costs for the provinces. People entering Canada are all entitled to health care programs and other benefits. There are financial costs, but there is also a human cost, as a person in this situation lives with uncertainty the entire time.

We wonder how the board will process this backlog, which must be reduced as quickly as possible.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

You were perhaps not in your position at the time, but in 1994, the National Parole Board experienced the same problem. Several recommendations were made.

Did you examine appointments to the National Parole Board?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

We did not examine them specifically this time. Our audit at the time revealed a considerable lack of transparency in the process. We noted an improvement in this regard in the report tabled Tuesday. Generally speaking, in the government, positions are announced and people may apply for them. Generally speaking, the process is more rigorous.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

I see.

Is it really a question of competency? We have not heard the same criticism in relation to Correctional Services. What does that organization do differently from the Department of Immigration to reduce the number of contentious issues surrounding nominations?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Unfortunately, I cannot answer that question, as we did not audit the process.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Thank you.

I would like to ask you a question about chapter 1. You mentioned exchanges between the RCMP and CSIS, two entities with considerable powers of intrusion. As a result of the O'Connor report on Maher Arar, the Iacobucci report and the Air India investigation, these organizations seem to be better equipped. However, you know here that certain decisions still need to be made.

Are these decisions relating to the recommendations in the reports?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

I think that the government was waiting for all of the investigations to end and for the publication of all reports before completing its work. The issue of the various levels of surveillance for these organizations was raised in the past and has been raised again. Some departments or agencies have a role regarding security intelligence that requires very little or no oversight, such as the Department of National Defence.

In 2004, we recommended that the government review this issue. We know that the public service has studied the issue, produced an analysis and made considerable progress in this regard, but it is waiting for the results of certain investigations to complete the rest.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

So you did not reach the conclusion that the recommendations of the O'Connor report had been implemented in their entirety.

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

We did not specifically examine that. We went back over recommendations that we had made in the past.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Merci beaucoup, madame Faille.

Ms. Crowder, seven minutes.