Public Accounts Committee on April 2nd, 2009

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I would like to thank my colleague for sharing his time with me.

I'm going to ask some questions about the environment. I am concerned with what is happening at the IRB as well as with the exchanges of information dealing with national security, but there are also problems affecting certain penitentiaries in Quebec that were covered by this audit. On the specific issue of correctional facilities, you gave the example of a penitentiary in Quebec where lead was discovered in the water.

I know that at the time, the idea was to look for long-term solutions. The solutions included measures for managing water within penitentiaries. Recently, I asked some questions about the infrastructure budget. Did you receive any indication from Correctional Services that the problem had been considered, in other words that outdated infrastructure would be renewed in rather short order?

[Scott Vaughan]

Thank you for the question.

In this chapter, we examined the implementation of a Health Canada central guidance document for all federal government departments and agencies to guarantee the quality of drinking water in all federal facilities. We noted, in this chapter, a problem at Correctional Services Canada in guaranteeing the quality of drinking water in its facilities, specifically in Quebec.

However, we did not look—

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

You did not look at the problem of lead in the water in penitentiaries.

Everyone knows about Shannon, and we would not want this kind of situation to repeat itself. Therefore, I would like to know how aware departments are of the problems linked to water in penitentiaries and what importance they attach to it. Do you have an opinion on that?

[Scott Vaughan]

As we wrote in the report, when Correctional Services Canada noted that there was a problem with water quality, they took immediate action. They agreed to review their management system and to ensure that the central guidance document on quality was implemented. In response specifically to this problem in Correctional Services facilities, we noted in this chapter that the department responded and will take action to ensure that the problem is dealt with.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

But there are still problems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Merci beaucoup, madame Faille.

Mr. Shipley, you have five minutes, please.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the Auditor General and her staff.

Mr. Vaughan, I would like to start, if I may, by asking about the recommendations that have come forward. It would appear that since 2005, actually, a number of good things have happened. I think that's always good for the people of Canada.

On page 13, you're talking about bottled water. From there, you move to page 27 in terms of recommendations. Who ever thought we'd pay more for water than gasoline and carry it around in a bottle? We've been doing that now for about 25 years. It would appear, though, that in terms of Health Canada, it doesn't have to fall under the same Canadian drinking water quality guidelines, and for this number of years, that hasn't happened.

It says at paragraph 1.40: “We found that Health Canada has been working for at least seven years on revisions to sections of the Food and Drug Regulations that apply to bottled water to incorporate the Guidelines.” That seems like a long time. Did they give you a reason for that? I know it's a low risk. Is it a priority issue?

[Scott Vaughan]

Thank you for the question.

I think, as you've said, both Health Canada itself and CFIA categorize bottled water as low risk. There was nothing in our report that would state that it is anything other than a low risk. As we've noted, Health Canada has been looking at this for, now, eight years. Bottled water is considered legally to be a food; therefore, it is under the food and drugs regulations. Those regulations date back 35 years.

The basis of our recommendation is to say the guidelines need to be incorporated. We have noted that there has been satisfactory progress in updating those guidelines.

As to the reason for it, I think that's probably something you may want to ask Health Canada. Our understanding is that because of the other issues they have and because it's low priority or low risk, other things may have taken its place.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Is that the reason, then, they haven't had to follow the guidelines? Did they indicate that to you?

[Scott Vaughan]

I think what we've been told by the department is that they are almost ready to announce a new, broader framework that would bring in a comprehensive and clear process. We've said one of the consequences of this being out of date is that there isn't a clear area in terms of roles and responsibilities, who exactly is in charge of what in terms of providing inspections and updated scientific evidence.

It may be something you want to address to the department, but that's our understanding.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

One of the recommendations that do come as unsatisfactory is that Health Canada should be revising their potable water regulations for common carriers, the ones that we on so much anymore. Why has that taken so long?

Your report says, following the 2005 recommendations, “The Department anticipates that this comprehensive approach will be completed between 2010 and 2012.” Is that an acceptable timeline, from your perspective?

[Scott Vaughan]

I think what we've noted from the report is where they did make satisfactory process. From the 2005 report, there were no systems in place to do any inspection of any aircraft, so there really was a question of whether Canadian air passengers had any assurance in terms of the safety of the potable water on aircraft. What we noted is that they now have a system in place. The 13 largest carriers have an agreement with Health Canada to do inspections. We've noted that has actually moved forward.

Where the gaps are and where we've noticed the gaps are in smaller carriers. There is no inspection service for foreign carriers departing from Canadian airports, and there are gaps in other common carriers.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

What your report said on page 12 surprised me. It said: “Although Health Canada has resumed routine inspection of drinking water on passenger aircraft belonging to the major Canadian airlines, gaps remain”. Can you help me with what “resumed” means? Why is there a gap? Has there been a gap? When did that start, and when did it resume? Was it after 2005?

[Scott Vaughan]

That's a good question. They didn't have any system in place, as I've just mentioned, for the aircraft. They were doing inspections on some trains and on some marine vessels, but we've also noted that there were gaps in terms of the coverage and sufficiency. Do they know how much is sufficient in terms of inspections? What we've said is that there are also some gaps there. Do they have a clear perspective in terms of how many times you have to go and inspect those trains and marine vessels?

On the trains and marine vessels, we've also noted some gaps. Part of that is how often they have been inspected. What we've said is, for example, on the trains, we've noted that there was a low level of inspections in proportion to the number of Canadians who take trains.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

Ms. Leslie.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, and thank you all for your presentations.

My first question is about Governor in Council appointments. Your report found pretty wide-ranging problems with the appointment process, with appointments not being made in a timely fashion. In particular, there were concerns with the Immigration and Refugee Board. We've seen reports that government is claiming to be working on a better process, trying to fix this one. Are you aware of this new process?

[Sheila Fraser]

There is a new process at the Immigration and Refugee Board. We reference it. We looked at it in the audit and we found that it was rigorous. For example, there's the introduction of a written exam. Actually, the exam was previously there, but now people have to get a certain mark to pass. There was also a change in the composition of the interview selection committees. We have no recommendations around the process per se, and we saw that the process was being followed.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Is the Office of the Auditor General going to keep following this new process?

[Sheila Fraser]

I expect that at some point we will come back to this question. But it won't be for a few years.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

My next question is about Passport Canada. It's done well, according to your report, in correcting the problems it had with this sudden influx of applications, this increase in demand. Some of our rural MPs are experiencing an increased caseload, because rural communities don't have access to passport offices. And MPs are filling that vacuum. In your report, did you look at how these services were being offered, particularly to rural or northern residents?

[Sheila Fraser]

This audit was focused on whether Passport Canada had learned from the difficulties it had in 2006 and 2007, and whether it appeared to be ready for a potential surge in demand. We didn't look at how it structured itself. We tend not to do that very often, because it usually relates to a policy decision and a resourcing issue.

In the previous audit, we looked at the security surrounding documents coming from MPs' offices, and we raised some concerns about that. We didn't do anything more, though. We only mentioned in the report that it had added 76 receiving agents, which increased the coverage. But we didn't look at how it decided where to put offices.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

That's one area we're concerned about. But it doesn't look as if your office will be following up on it.

[Sheila Fraser]

No.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you.

Those are all my questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Ms. Leslie.

Mr. Young.