Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was authority.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:55 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
No. I do not think that our crown corporation is included in that.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Ms. Faille.
Mr. Christopherson, you have seven minutes.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Chair. And thank you all for being here today.
I'm having some trouble understanding a piece of this, and I'm sure it's just because I don't understand. So you can help me.
In 1972 they came out with the system of exemptions, and it was meant to be temporary. The problem the Auditor General is having—and I'm using her words—is that “The Authority therefore needs to have assurance that Canadian masters and deck watch officers are competent.” There's a 2002 report that came out with the same concern, making the same recommendations.
I don't understand why this is taking so long, but if I'm hearing your answer correctly, your solution is going to be to grandparent the existing 60% of exemptions, giving them automatic licences, and then everybody else who comes afterwards will actually be properly tested and be what we all would consider to be compliant with and consistent with the law.
But if the concern right now is the 60% who are exempted and who don't have to, and there's no way of being reasonably assured that they have the talent, then automatically conferring upon them a new licence seems to me to take the old problem and put it into the new system. You can say that once they retire or die, that won't be a problem. But the issue is that 60% now, and to me, as somebody who represents one of the great harbours in the Great Lakes, this is a real concern.
Help me to understand how you're dealing with the questions around the 60% now who are exempted, when you're going to continue to exempt them in the new system.
3:55 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
There's a question there that is multi-part.
In 1972, when the Pilotage Act came into force, Parliament recognized that there were Canadian sailors going up and down the Great Lakes piloting their own vessels and decided that these people would get special treatment. They were already doing the job. So Parliament put in the Pilotage Act a transition period that would allow these people to come to the authority and receive a pilotage certificate. That never happened. There were always numerous reasons for its not happening.
3:55 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
In my 24 years...1972 is like 40 years ago.
They just didn't come; they didn't have to come. I think one of the problems in 1972, when this grandfathering provision was put in.... The exemption does not allow the authority to remove an exemption; that was the biggest problem, and it was too difficult to change. There was always a hope that there would be cooperation with Transport Canada and the industry to resolve this, but it hasn't happened.
The Auditor General's concern is a valid one, as I said a while ago. We have ships that are exempt right now. It's not individuals who are exempt; it's ships.
3:55 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
In certain cases, if I think the ship is not safe enough, there is no provision in my regulations to stop it; we do it anyway. We know of the weakness.
4 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'm sorry, I don't have a lot of time. Could you speak to my issue, please?
4 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
I'm speaking to your issue. Your issue is why we would want to give 60% of these people a pilotage certificate. We know that the people out there are experienced and properly qualified to do their jobs.
4 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
How do you know that? Is it because the companies that own the ships tell you?
4 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
That is one of the reasons.
4 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
No.
Presently, the only responsibility for the company is to send us a letter indicating that their people are qualified.
4 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
That's right, and that's a concern, if I understand, that the Auditor General has raised and that the people in 2002 raised, seven years ago. You're taking that same group of people and handing them a new licence in the new system. I'm still having trouble understanding how that addresses the public safety concerns.
4 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
The public safety concern is covered by this authority through due diligence in—
4 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
What due diligence, sir? You get a letter from a shipping company with a list of names and titles.
4 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
I was just getting to that.
We see every ship that goes through the system. We know who the captains are. We see them on a periodic basis. They come and apply to be licensed pilots. So we know who they are. Their incident rates are non-existent, so there really isn't—
4 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Why is the AG raising it, and why did the 2002 report raise it? Are they wrong?
4 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
They're not wrong. A third party needs to validate that these people are properly trained. In this society and with environmental concerns, there needs to be a third party to validate.
4 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
So that's agreed. I didn't get a very clear answer, but I think the fact that you couldn't give me a clear answer answers my question.
Even now, as I understand it from your words today, which I'm quoting, “The Authority is now in the drafting stage”, and then, “The proposed changes will allow” them....
Anyway, what I'm getting from this is that you still don't have an agreement. You still don't know exactly what you're going to do.
Let me ask, what are the pressures? Who is threatening you from just saying that this is the legislation? I'm not trying to be difficult, but what is stopping you from saying that this is in the best interest of our mandate, the public safety, and that if the politicians are on-side, that's what's going to happen? Who is it who has a veto and is not coming on-side?
4 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Great Lakes Pilotage Authority
Mr. Chair, what we have started, since the auditor has raised the concern—
