Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 7th, 2009

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Smith, and thank you, Mr. Lemire.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Smith.

Madame Faille, you have three or four minutes.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I just want to complete the questions that my colleague, Ms. Crombie, asked regarding how difficult it is to pass regulations.

What compromises did you have to make to get your partners to accept these regulations?

[Robert Lemire]

The biggest compromise was recognizing their own training system that they have for their officers. It was not a huge compromise, though, because the system allows us to do verification and ensure that the individuals who complete the program are properly trained. Our compromise, if you want to call it that, was to start recognizing their training system.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

So you are going to recognize the training system of every shipowner. How many different companies were we talking about earlier?

[Robert Lemire]

There are four major shipowners that represent 99% of Canadian vessels. We are talking about four or five companies.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I was wondering if it was just changes that had to do with investment. So we are talking about intermodality development for shipping. There is a major push to develop inland ports in the central United States, and the possibility of making Montreal an inland port is appealing to a number of shipowners.

As things stand, you are really feeling the effects of the economic downturn. Would significant investment in these areas help to replenish your coffers?

[Robert Lemire]

It's very hard to speak for the ports and what money they need for infrastructure and whatnot. Certainly, for the Great Lakes Pilotage Authority, none of those funds are required. But I think the ports have their own association that....

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Earlier, I noticed that the Auditor General raised an eyebrow when she heard me ask about how you determine your costs and invoice shipowners.

But first, could you give us some figures that show how much the largest shipowners pay for your services?

Earlier, you mentioned $0.02 to $0.03 per tonne of cargo. Here, we studied how costs were imposed by the departments and agencies, and Treasury Board assured us that there would be a new policy, that these costs would be published and that we would finally get some information on how the costs were invoiced.

You said earlier that you were not subject to that policy. Is that right?

[Sheila Fraser]

I will answer, Mr. Chair.

The current legislation applies only to new fees that are imposed. Since the crown corporation has always set the fees, it is not subject to this policy, but the act establishing the crown corporation requires it to operate on a self-financing and cost-recovery basis.

My reaction could have been due to the fact that the crown corporation may have used up its surplus and is now in deficit.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Therefore, the fees are currently lower than what you need to break even.

[Robert Lemire]

The fees are high enough to cover operating costs, but too low to cover the accumulated deficit.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Do you have an action plan in place to tackle this issue?

[Robert Lemire]

Yes, we do. Each year, in either October or November, we get together with industry officials and try to estimate costs for the coming year. As Ms. Fraser noted, for 2009, we are projecting a deficit of over $1 million, with a 30% decrease in traffic. This is a problem that will need to be addressed. The board of directors will be discussing it this month and measures will be taken in due time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Ms. Faille.

We have a couple of minutes left.

You're next on my list, Mr. Shipley. Or Mr. Young, is it?

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, by the way.

What is your definition of an incident? Just briefly, please.

[Robert Lemire]

It's a term that my company and the shipping industry in the world have been using. Sometimes we use the word “accident” or “incident”, but we always seem to revert to the word “incident”.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Does that include environmental problems?

[Robert Lemire]

Absolutely everything.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Everything that can happen that goes wrong during piloting?

[Robert Lemire]

Anything from dropping an anchor when you're not supposed to, to hitting a bridge in Montreal.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Madame Fraser, did you find any evidence that the lack of an effective mechanism for determining who was qualified as a pilot led to any incidents or accidents?

[Sheila Fraser]

The corporation certainly made the point to us that there had not been evidence of serious incidents or accidents over the years, but I'm not sure that's good enough, quite frankly.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemire, my riding of Oakville is on Lake Ontario, between Toronto and Hamilton. I'm sure you're familiar with it. I'm just wondering, are there any issues regarding safety in that part of Lake Ontario? In particular, I'm thinking of environmental issues or problems with recreational craft.

[Robert Lemire]

Absolutely not. On all the foreign vessels you do have a qualified pilot, and on the Canadian ships you have qualified people who are licensed by Transport Canada. So there's absolutely nothing that I can think of.