Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 4th, 2009

[Sheila Fraser]

We don't raise an issue about that aspect particularly. We did see there was little analysis as to the choice of the 38, but then again it's a policy decision.

Where we do raise some issues, though, is that there has been a significant shift in the programs under which the people are coming into the country. The provincial nominee programs are becoming more and more important. Were the trends to continue, the provincial nominee programs would be the single largest source of skilled workers coming into the country.

The federal government has very little information or effectively any kind of oversight over the choices and the categories under which the provinces are bringing people in. They essentially accept the nominees from the provinces. And as we note in the report, if the trend were to continue, the federal skilled worker program, which is around 70,000--which was about 100,000 five years ago--could drop to under 20,000 by 2012. So it raises questions about whether this is the desired effect. We believe there should be evaluations done of these programs. Are they meeting the labour needs of the country?

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Right. And we know that immigration is so critical to our growth.

You also referenced the fact that there is a 63-month delay in processing. So why wouldn't individuals look to other countries to immigrate, where their processing is much simpler and faster and easier, frankly, such as the U.K. or Australia? We are, after all, competing for the best and brightest minds in the world.

[Sheila Fraser]

Absolutely. I'm sure that is one of the reasons the government introduced a smaller number of job categories that would qualify, in order to try to speed up processing. They have indicated they would like processing to occur within six to twelve months, which is certainly far more reasonable than five years.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Is it achievable?

[Sheila Fraser]

As we say, we have encouraged the department to track the number of applications and the processing times. It's still very early under those new job categories, so I think only time will tell.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I'm going to shift gears again and go back to chapter 7, “Emergency Management--Public Safety Canada”. What concrete steps need to be taken to ensure we have a coordinated federal action plan in the event of a new emergency of national significance?

[Sheila Fraser]

We think one critical element is to have approval of the federal emergency response plan, which clearly sets out the roles and responsibilities of the various departments, in particular Public Safety Canada, so it has the authority, if you will, should there be a national emergency.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Once again, can we speculate why this plan has not been approved after four years?

[Sheila Fraser]

We don't have an answer for that, Chair. You would really have to ask the department.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Granted.

In 2008-09 the government allocated $58.5 million for emergency management but only spent two-thirds of it, so where did the money go? How was it used?

[Sheila Fraser]

The money would have been used for activities within the department. Any moneys that were not spent would have gone back to the consolidated revenue fund.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Clearly there was a missed opportunity to spend money on needy programs, on programs that had been allocated and budgeted.

[Sheila Fraser]

As we note in the report, there is a very high vacancy rate--

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I was going to go there next.

[Sheila Fraser]

--of personnel, and that, we think, would be one of the factors for why many of the plans and issues we would have expected to be further along are not.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Granted, and as you referenced, there has been a very high turnover rate and it's very disconcerting. At Public Safety Canada it is 71%, and 56% of senior managers had only been in their positions for 18 months. Why is the turnover so high, and how would that impact emergency preparedness?

[Sheila Fraser]

As to the reasons, again, that would have to be discussed with the department, if they have done the analysis. We didn't go into that kind of detailed work in that area. Clearly, turnover like that will have an effect on the ability of the department to produce the plans and do the work that is expected of them.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

You also said that over 50% of the budget allocated to national emergency response exercises was designed to share lessons learned, best practices, etc., but they have been shelved in each of the past three years. What was lost? Why did that happen?

[Sheila Fraser]

Chair, I'll ask Ms. Loschiuk to respond to that.

[Wendy Loschiuk]

Thank you, Chair.

I believe you are referring to paragraph 7.37, where they are talking about exercises. While we found that some exercises were conducted, they were not able to get as many exercises under way as they initially had hoped. There were issues regarding getting all the players together or even getting plans together. Again, with the lack of staff to plan for these exercises, it didn't happen. Why that is exactly, again you'd have to go into the details with the department as to what they were planning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Ms. Crombie.

Mr. Young, for six minutes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

With regard to foreign workers, the skilled worker program has been a significant success, however imperfect, and the wait times have gone down, in my understanding, from six years to about six months. As well, this government has welcomed a record number of immigrants to Canada.

For skilled workers, isn't the starting position the labour market surveys and labour market shortages in the provinces? We know that every province has labour market shortages and there are clear needs.

I am pleased to see that the improvements you are recommending have been accepted by CIC to clarify responsibilities and to conduct structural assessments of the genuineness of both employers and jobs offered. But I have a question.

I understand it would be great information to have--the job and whether the employer can afford to pay, whether they have an apartment for the person to stay in, etc., and to be able to quantify that. The department agrees to work on it, but my concern is that it sounds as if the Government of Canada would be acting like a giant job verification agency, not quite a job placement agency but a job verification agency. It would be very labour intensive. I am wondering how many people you'd have to hire to verify over 50,000 jobs a year, to call the employers or contact them and try to verify, maybe ask for financial statements. You'd have to set up a bureaucracy or beef up the bureaucracy considerably to do so.

In addition to that, how reliable would the information be? For example, if someone who ran a kitchen in a hotel got a call from CIC asking if there had been a job application from a person in Africa who wanted to be a chef, he'd say yes and fill out all the boxes and get back to running his kitchen. How reliable would that information be?

Economic conditions could change or the hotel could close and the person would come here. Wouldn't it be more reliable, or at least as reliable, for the person to know there was a labour shortage of that skill set in that area, in that province at that time, and that there were a number of jobs to go to?

[Sheila Fraser]

Chair, perhaps I'll ask Mr. Flageole to help me on this, but we are certainly not proposing that the federal government validate every single job. This would have to be done on a risk basis when there are situations that would appear suspicious or doubtful and there would be some follow-up of it. Currently that is not done. There is confusion as well about who actually has responsibility in this area. So there needs to be clarification given.

On the question of coming for a job within an area, my understanding is that under current regulations, a person can only go to that individual who has applied. They do not have the freedom to move around. I think there may be proposals to change that. Currently if that job should turn out not to be genuine, the person is kind of stuck or could be subjected to a difficult situation depending upon that.

The other issue we mentioned a bit earlier is that we have to ensure the integrity of the program and that people don't create jobs that may not be valid in order to process family members or others who would take much longer under the family reunification program.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Regarding the Emergency Management Act, my understanding is that it was revised in 2007 and there was an interim plan in place. I would assume that plan had outlined a federal role. I'm wondering how the fact that it says interim on the front of the plan would prevent it from being carried out or implemented effectively.

[Sheila Fraser]

I think it is known as kind of interim, but it is really a draft plan. It has never been approved by government.