Evidence of meeting #4 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was provinces.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Michael Wernick  Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Christine Cram  Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Odette Johnston  Director, Social Programs Reform Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

That was not my question. These were the priorities chosen, so when you're submitting a report to the committee here, for accuracy purposes, we should have said that chapter 4 was discussed and we would like to put it back into the steering committee. I'm not really belabouring the point. If it causes too many problems, I will go along with whatever this report is.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Okay. What I thought was going to save us time is taking us twice as much. I withdraw my motion.

(Amendment withdrawn)

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

It's on the agenda for the next steering committee.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Okay.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Is there any further discussion on the minutes of the steering committee?

(Motion agreed to)

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

All right. The next item is the motion by Mr. Christopherson to bring to the committee the Parliamentary Budget Officer. I'll read it:

That the Parliamentary Budget Officer be invited to appear before the Committee to discuss his role and issues pertaining to his independence.

Colleagues, I am going to invite Mr. Christopherson to speak to this for up to two minutes. I'll entertain up to six interventions of one minute each and go back to Mr. Christopherson and put it to a vote, so we won't spend a lot of time on it.

Mr. Christopherson, you have two minutes. Go ahead.

On a point of order, Mr. Saxton.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

As the parliamentary secretary to the President of the Treasury Board, I want to emphasize that I'm very interested in the subject of this motion, but I do not believe it is a matter properly dealt with by this committee. The public accounts committee looks into the economy, efficiency, and effectiveness of government programs and ensures that government is accountable to Parliament regarding its administrative practices.

This motion asks the committee to call the Parliamentary Budget Officer before us to discuss his role, specifically his independence. It does not ask him to appear regarding his work on the budget or on the costs of the Afghanistan mission, for example, or any of his work that would fall under the mandate of public accounts. I submit that it is not in the mandate of this committee to look into the mandate of the Parliamentary Budget Officer. The PBO's mandate stems from the Accountability Act, which places the PBO within the Library of Parliament. It falls outside of the mandate of this committee to examine the internal operations of the Library of Parliament. There is a committee that was created in order to examine the kind of issue that is raised by this motion.

I would like to state again that I find this to be a very important topic, which deserves proper study. However, that study is more properly dealt with by the standing joint committee on the library.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

A point of order.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I appreciate what the member is saying, although it does create problems when parliamentary secretaries roll in here with marching orders from on high. Having said that, I appreciate that there is a question of where it goes, but I don't think it is out of order for us to consider it, given that we are one of the three committees mandated to interact with the budget officer. As I understand it--and I stand to be corrected--we are one of three committees that have the right to request information and request reports, so I don't think it's out of order.

I'll speak to why the motion is there, but on the point of as to whether it's out of order, Chair, I don't see anything out of order with the motion, particularly with the way it is worded.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Christopherson. I have given this some thought. We are one of the three committees mentioned in the legislation constating that particular officer of the Library of Parliament, and I think it is in order to have him here if the committee so decides.

The issue will be debated on the motion. Can he come? Yes. Should he come? That's probably another issue, and I agree with Mr. Saxton that probably the best and most appropriate committee is the Library of Parliament rather than this committee.

We are going to go back to Mr. Christopherson. You have two minutes.

I'll entertain up to six interventions and go back to Mr. Christopherson, and then we'll put the motion.

Mr. Christopherson.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair. Thank you for your ruling.

I have to tell you, the wording that was suggested to me by others I talked to was far stronger than this in terms of taking a position on the issues at hand, which Mr. Saxton did touch on in his remarks.

My sole purpose in doing this is that nobody else is. We have a budget officer who's running around believing that he's under one mandate and under one supervisory set of rules, and others who are in positions of responsibility are saying differently. And nobody's resolving it. All I'm trying to do is offer up one venue.

Quite frankly, this is probably not the best place to resolve the issue, but as one parliamentarian, in a non-partisan way, I'm saying this can't continue. This is crazy. Somebody has to take responsibility for getting to the bottom of it, setting it straight, so we can then go about enjoying the fruits of the work that's to be done.

In the absence of somebody else's grabbing it...and to that degree, Chair, I'm quite prepared to accept a motion and would support a motion of tabling if I get an indication from, particularly, government members or opposition colleagues who know it's going somewhere else. I'll just keep that idling on the side street--well, it won't be idling, it'll be waiting on the side street--in case it's needed, in which case I will withdraw and get rid of it.

I am not about arguing what's right or wrong or what those parameters are to be. I say to my government colleagues that what I am about, as a parliamentarian, is that this can't go on. This is an untenable situation, and I don't see anybody resolving it.

Maybe I was hoping, if nothing else, this might light the fuse, give it a kick--pick your metaphor. I didn't feel right that we could continue doing nothing when the media and others come up and say, “What are you all going to do about it?” and there's no answer.

So there's my bit.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Okay, I'm going to make a suggestion, colleagues.

I've talked to a number of other people about this motion, and as I indicated to Mr. Saxton, in my opinion this is not the proper committee. The right and proper committee is the Library of Parliament committee. The difficulty is that it took them a while to get struck, but they're now doing it. They're getting overtures from a number of other people who deal with this issue.

Mr. Christopherson is quite right, this is an issue that has to be dealt with by Parliament. Parliament has to assert its own accountabilities, and in this particular issue especially it has to do it immediately.

What I would suggest, following up with Mr. Christopherson's statement, is that someone take a motion to table for two or three weeks to allow the Library of Parliament to get on with what they should be doing, and then if they don't, we can consider this in a different light.

Would you accept that, Mr. Christopherson?

5:35 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I would, Chair, that's fine.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Okay. The chair would entertain a motion to table a motion by Mr. Kramp; that's non-debatable.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Tabling with instructions to be returned no later than three weeks from now.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

No later than three weeks, that's fine.

(Motion agreed to)

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

The meeting is adjourned.