Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 12th, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Yes. Please do.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Good.

[Michael Wernick]

Sorry. I'm not sure what the other question was.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I was going through a litany of things that the Auditor General had said, and I was wondering whether you have an action plan, because what you had in your presentation was really not an action plan. It was, I'm sorry to say, bunk. I really didn't think there was anything concrete in it. If you have an action plan, please share it with the committee to give us some comfort.

[Michael Wernick]

We will provide the specifics in response to the Auditor General's chapter. However, I'm disappointed if I haven't conveyed that signing tripartite agreements with three provinces to put in place a prevention-based model for child protection is an accomplishment. Everybody who works in child welfare knows that we have to move to prevention models, and that is what we're trying to accomplish. The very same people who are dealing with and trying to respond to the findings of the report are also trying to negotiate these tripartite agreements. We have signed three tripartite agreements, and we're implementing them.

In response to a previous question, as soon as we have some experience with them, there will be evaluations, and those evaluations will be available to parliamentarians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Last, we have Mr. Young for four minutes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Wernick talked about systemic approaches to first nations poverty. He mentioned finishing high school and participating in the labour market--I guess otherwise known as having jobs--and the issue of water. My question is what have you been doing to address the underlying problems that lead to children being taken out of their homes?

[Michael Wernick]

We have to agree on the underlying causes. We have programs that try to ensure that people have safe, secure housing. Our partner departments try to deal with policing services and communities.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

With regard to housing, what progress have you made?

[Michael Wernick]

I'd be happy to provide specifics on that. We build and renovate housing units every year with the resources that we have available. So does CMHC.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

How bad--

[Michael Wernick]

The underlying issues have to do with what happens in particular families. We can't get at that. That's case management. That's what the agencies do. We can try to improve the environments in communities. Basically, if kids are safe, secure, and going to school, those are the most fundamental things we can do.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

What about economic development? What progress have you made there?

[Michael Wernick]

There's not a lot you can do with small government programs to change the trajectory of the Canadian economy. As I said in my earlier response, there's going to be resource development, megaprojects, mining, and forestry. What we can do most of all, I think, is put in place basic education. We do have some support programs, and the government committed in the 2008 budget to taking the economic development programs, which are dusty old things from the 1980s, and putting in place a new economic development framework. That will be done by the government this calendar year.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Just quickly, you said prevention, which costs $20,000 to $25,000 a child, is the best way to go. Briefly, what is the prevention model?

[Michael Wernick]

You should talk to Ms. Johnston, who's a practitioner.

[Odette Johnston]

We've worked with each jurisdiction and analyzed what's happening in each province, looking at what they're doing in terms of prevention, jurisdiction by jurisdiction. We've put in place frameworks that outline the broad goals and objectives that are going to guide prevention. When it gets down to the agency level, they develop business plans on what specifically they're going to do over a five-year period.

Part of that is the prevention money. We're also looking at increased collaboration with other programs and services in the community. They establish very clear targets on that.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Wernick, what progress have you made in defining culturally appropriate services? I still want to understand this better.

[Michael Wernick]

As I said, I don't think there ever will be a specific definition. What's culturally appropriate to a community would depend on whether it was a Sechelt or a Mohawk community or something else. We're trying to build that into business plans, targets, and goals more systematically. Again, I would ask Ms. Johnston to elaborate on that, and we can follow up in writing, if that would be helpful.

[Odette Johnston]

One of the things we did when we renewed our authorities was to expand the range of placement options for communities. We added kinship care and post-adoption subsidies and supports. Those will, by their very nature, assist in providing more culturally appropriate services. As Mr. Wernick said, we do look at the cultural appropriateness in terms of the prevention frameworks we've been developing. Those are built into the frameworks, business plans, and agreements as we move along.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Young.

That concludes the second round, and now the committee has a couple of motions to deal with.

I'm going to ask you, Ms. Fraser and Mr. Wernick, if you have any closing remarks for the committee. Before you do that, again, on behalf of all the members of the committee, I'd like to thank you for your work and your attendance here today.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[Sheila Fraser]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. If I could, in my closing remarks, I'd like to make one point of clarification.

The federal government has the responsibility to pay for services for children on reserve. Those child and family services can be delivered in two ways: either through provincial governments or through first nations agencies. We note in the report that where there are agreements with the provinces, the government basically reimburses the provinces for the cost of providing their services.

Over time, as there has been a shift to preventative services, the federal government would be reimbursing the provinces for that. Where the funding formula comes in is with the first nations agencies. The funding formula, as we've mentioned, has not been changed in 20 years. It is largely skewed towards putting children into care, and it really does not pay very much, as the deputy has indicated, for preventative services.

Mr. Wernick referred to a report we made in 2006, I think it was, about some of the underlying issues, and one of the causes or one of the issues that we noted was sustained management attention to programs. Quite frankly, one has to ask why a program goes on for 20 years, the world changes around it, and yet the formula stays the same, preventative services aren't funded, and all these children are being put into care.

I think we can be somewhat hopeful when we look at the Alberta model, which is recognizing that services have changed and funding based on that example is going to go up quite significantly. All I can say is that I would hope the rest of the provinces and the funding formulas would move quickly so that these children, who really do need services, get them as quickly as they can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

Mr. Wernick, do you have any closing comments?

[Michael Wernick]

Very briefly, I certainly agree with Madam Fraser's comments.

I don't think there can be anything more troubling to any of us as public servants, parliamentarians, or parents than what happens to children, especially children in vulnerable situations. I hope you can accept that we're trying to move forward in a very complicated area of public policy with our partners, and we do share your sense of frustration and your sense of urgency on it.

On my watch, we have renovated the authorities and we have moved on the tripartites, thanks to the leadership of two very capable ministers, I should be the first to say. I am optimistic that this problem can be attacked and that we can improve things. There are other complicated issues in aboriginal policy that also can be attacked by the sustained attention of good public policy and sound management. We look forward to an ongoing dialogue with this committee.