Evidence of meeting #50 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was every.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Which committee was responsible for overseeing your position?
4:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
It was the operations committee. I think I appeared once before the ethics committee.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
And you also appeared before Senate committees as well?
4:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
Indeed.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
As with other officers of Parliament, there are a number of mechanisms to ensure the appropriate balance of independence. Appointment and reappointment is done by joint resolution of both houses of Parliament. The annual budget is first submitted to a parliamentary panel chaired by the Speaker of the House and then approved by the President of the Treasury Board or the Treasury Board cabinet committee. Treasury Board agents are required to publish performance plans and reports to establish an annual report on their operations. Did you comply with all those requirements when you were in that position?
4:10 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
Absolutely.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Did the committees that you appeared before ever ask why you had so few disclosures that were being investigated?
4:10 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
They were interested in the reasons. But in every case, I sought out the help of parliamentarians so that my mandate would be better known. It is natural in the evolution of an institution to have fifteen investigations after three years. But they were interested in the work—I was never challenged on the specifics.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Did you explain to them why there were so few investigations?
4:10 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
I think I did that in explaining the mandate, the complexity. I was reminded by many jurists that if the office erred in its first few years, if we were accused of undue process, if we did not render the right decisions, it would cause irreparable harm. For these reasons, we needed to make sure that we had quality control, revision, and consensus in all cases.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Did the Standing Committee on Government Operations or any other parliamentary committee ever follow up with concerns regarding your office or your conduct after any of your appearances before them?
4:10 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
Never.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC
Madame Ouimet, I think you can understand the gravity of the situation we're in. We're very troubled by the Auditor General's report. Would you like to comment on the Auditor General's report now?
4:10 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
I have looked at every single conclusion and observation, and if you read my written statement, I address every single aspect. It took two years, which, in and of itself, is very unusual. This is a very small organization of 20 people. There were teams of seven auditors showing up at our door. I've had to answer every question, and I have to say I was cross-examined during three days by four people: a head litigator from the private sector, the deputy auditor general, the head investigator—who in fact had an enforcement background. I don't think she's ever worked within an audit environment. And they used police techniques. There was also a representative of either legal or audit. I have never seen an audit such as that.
The institution was represented by counsel, and they were fully satisfied with all of the responses I provided. In fact, there were no probes or pre-investigation when that investigation was launched, and I don't think they had any experience with my own legislation. Hence, they left it mid-way.
I had to retain the services of Mr. Whitehall to get the specifics of the allegations against me because I took this very seriously. And quite frankly, to this day, whether it's financial management, whether it's a probe, whether it's governance, we had every aspect of the institution.... I knew we would be the target of criticism by the nature of who we are.
I hired experts on the legal side. I had a former Supreme Court justice work with us as my special adviser to look at the legal concepts, some of which are being challenged by the Auditor General.
I had the expert in Canada in administrative law as my deputy commissioner. We resorted to experts in procurement, human resources, to ensure we had the right approach. I had three former executives who came to work paid as officers because they believe in the mandate. In fact, on what we have done, even on the human resources, we were shown as models. We were invited to do presentations on the model. We have the most advanced financial controls in the public sector, as recognized by the Comptroller General. We've invested so much to make this organization above scrutiny from a management perspective, but as well from a legal, from a quasi-judicial, from an administrative—and my three annual reports, sir, speak for themselves. They tell the story.
In the second chapter I talk about the unique challenges of a small agency. I was not alone--
4:15 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
I apologize, Mr. Chair. I am passionate. That is one of my—
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe
I appreciate that, but we are way over the limit. Mr. Saxton is one of those individuals who wants to be absolutely punctual, so I'm going to go to the second round, which is for five minutes.
Mr. Bains.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Most of our colleagues and I have been patiently waiting for you for three months. We're very glad to have you here before our committee to discuss the Auditor General's report.
I have an example here before me, an e-mail dated February 26, 2010, from the PCO, the Prime Minister's department, e-mailing you to say, “We would appreciate if you could advise PCO as to the status” of a complaints request.
In your opinion, is it normal practice to discuss cases with the Prime Minister's department?
4:15 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
Absolutely not, but I have to say I don't know which note this is. I've not had access to this.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON
I will give you a copy of the e-mail afterwards, because I have limited time.
I have another example here now with regard, again, to a discussion about cases. I have an agenda meeting here with Minister Day. We asked Minister Day in the House of Commons if he met with you. First he said no, and then he came back and said yes, he did meet with you.
I have a copy here of the agenda of that meeting. In that agenda you indicate your third annual report, case volume, complexity, and trends, as you discussed today with us as well. Did you discuss any specific cases with Minister Day, and doesn't that undermine your independence?
4:15 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
Never was a specific case discussed with any ministers or any people outside the organization.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON
Why would you request this? Why would it be on the agenda, and why would you request a meeting with Minister Day?
4:15 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
As I explained, the minister has responsibilities under the act, such as a code of conduct and a five-year review. And yes, our cases--we essentially lay it out in the annual report--are complex. But no specific case was ever discussed. My general counsel was in attendance at those two meetings and can confirm the same.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON
The early e-mail I alluded to is one of many examples I have that I would be more than glad to share with you if I have the opportunity to do so.
Clearly, the Prime Minister's department, even Treasury Board, had a lot of communication with you and your department. The impression I'm left with, and it's very clear from the quote I just brought forward to you, for example, is that the government seemed to be interfering with your department and your independence. This is something that was raised as a concern in the Auditor General's report as well.
We're all discussing your severance agreement, and we're all asking why you accepted that and accepted the gag order. That was reinforced again by the Prime Minister, who said today that it was the cheapest and fastest way to make a change. Do you agree with his assessment?
4:15 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada, As an Individual
What is the question, Mr. Chair? There are a number of issues you've raised.