Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 27th, 2013

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Are we lacking a central mechanism here by which all these departments can crossthread the information?

It seems to me that the only service that really coordinates well with others, meaning not only with other departments but also with the province, would be for newborns. When a child is born, they register the information. Everything else seems to be off the rails.

We're all siloed as far as electronic information is concerned. Would that be a fair statement?

[Michael Ferguson]

Again, we recognize that technology can be complex, and it can be difficult sometimes to get different systems to talk to each other, but generally we feel that there does need to be a strategy. There needs to be a strategy that gives direction to the departments about what's expected from them, how they're expected to work together and coordinate those types of activities. It starts with having that overall strategy.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I have another quick question.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Sorry, no, Mr. Simms. Your time has expired.

Mr. Aspin, you now have the floor, sir.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and welcome, Mr. Ferguson, and our guests. I'd like to begin by complimenting you on your French. You're coming along quite nicely.

As Canadians, we rely more and more on the Internet and on online services. If you look across the breadth of our government, services such as Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, Canada Revenue Agency, Veterans Affairs, and Industry Canada are really client-based departments.

Mr. Ferguson, in your view, given the size and scope of online services throughout the government, and particularly in those four departments, which federal department would you say is best to oversee and coordinate government-wide efforts?

[Michael Ferguson]

On putting together the strategy, I believe if my memory serves me, we made a recommendation that Treasury Board be the lead on making sure that a strategy is in place. Of the departments we looked at, I think the one that has made the most progress in offering online services is the Canada Revenue Agency. They've made the most progress since 2005, but I think the right place to have the responsibility for coordinating a strategy is really the Treasury Board Secretariat.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

You made the point, as you did in response to Mr. Simms' question, that there should be an overall strategy coordinated by one particular department, and you named the Treasury Board.

[Michael Ferguson]

That's right. It all starts with making sure there is an overall strategy giving direction to departments about what's expected of them.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

You noted that Canada Revenue Agency is doing some fair amount of good work in this area. Your report notes that in the last four years, Canada Revenue Agency has added over 40 online service enhancements.

Could you comment on these additions and what best practices exist here for other departments to look at or to improve their online services for Canadians?

[Michael Ferguson]

I'll answer in a general sense and then see if Ms. Loschiuk has anything to add.

I think the overall best practice we've seen, or good practice we've seen, is simply that the agency has continued to make this file a priority. They've continued to make sure that they are putting in place services that Canadians can use online.

I'll see if Ms. Loschiuk has anything else to add.

[Wendy Loschiuk, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The member was asking about best practices in CRA. The advantage I think they have is that they're very client focused. They are looking very much to understand what Canadians need to file their taxes and to work in My Account, etc., so they have more of an outward look.

We saw that other departments are a little more internal. A lot of their work tends to be a bit more focused on what they do inside for their own business practices. Certainly, as the Auditor General has pointed out, with a more government-wide focus, with some leadership from Treasury Board, and as we mentioned in our recommendation, from HRSDC through Shared Services Canada, if there were more of a government-wide perspective, more of an acquired focus on how departments can deal with this, that would help significantly.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Two seconds, if you can think of something quick.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

As an example of efficiency, your report notes that the enrolment process at Industry Canada to federally incorporate a business can be completed the same day. Are there any other such examples in this report that serve as best practices for other departments?

[Michael Ferguson]

I'll ask Ms. Loschiuk to address that.

[Wendy Loschiuk]

Certainly, we noticed that in some cases departments allow you to complete a transaction from start to finish if you want to get in and register, etc. In other cases, you have to wait for a password or some other information to come in the mail.

There are things departments are doing whereby they look and see what the customer needs and try to focus on that.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you, Mr. Aspin. Very good, sir.

Now Mr. Harris has the floor.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll be focusing on chapter 6, “Emergency Management on Reserves”. Before I get to that, just to follow up on the online services and further proof about how important the work your office does is in paragraph 2.19, which states:

A 2010 Service Canada survey stated that 32 percent of Canadians who visited its service centres had previously used the telephone or online service delivery channels.

That means that one-third of people going to see Service Canada in person weren't able to complete what they needed to do online or by phone. That's certainly a glaring lack and certainly an area that the government and departments need to address to increase customer satisfaction.

Another one that is frankly shocking in 2013 is in paragraph 2.21. It's with reference to HRSDC:

2.21 While these improvements have resulted in 98 percent of EI applications being filed online—

—which is exceptional—

—an individual still cannot determine the status of their claim online.

Would you not think that should be something pretty simple to fix?

[Michael Ferguson]

I'm never going to try to venture into the world of how easy it is to fix something in technology. However, it was something that we felt was notable, that the technology is there to file online, but it's not there to understand the status.

Again, it was just an example of what you can and cannot do online.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I come from an IT and computers and customer service background. It's never as easy as it looks. We just have to look south of the border at the problems they're having with online services right now as proof of that.

Moving over to chapter 6, “Emergency Management on Reserves”, I wanted to start off with a line about why it was important to do the audit.

In Canada, natural disasters and catastrophic events, such as flooding, are increasing in both frequency and intensity. When it comes to such disasters, First Nations communities are considered to be at risk of emergencies due to their isolation and geographic location.

Of course, it's not up to you to figure out why we're having more catastrophes and disasters, but I would say, for myself, I believe climate change is a part of it.

From 2009-10 to 2012-13, there have been 447 emergencies that have occurred on reserves. Moving to your findings, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada's annual budget of about $19 million for the emergency management program is not sufficient. Later you mentioned that the government had to put close to $400 million in additional money into those programs over and above the $19 million. Later in the same paragraph, it's mentioned that oftentimes the money was borrowed from other funds, including the capital funds which are there to actually build infrastructure in these communities, which would make them safer and less prone to emergencies and disasters.

Do you think this is a prudent approach? You've mentioned it in the report, and it's something that is there. Is there enough money going into disaster management? Does the government have the right focus? Are they putting enough into prevention and mitigation of disasters to prevent them from happening in the first place?

[Michael Ferguson]

In terms of the budget, we understand that having a central pool for the department to draw on in emergency situations probably makes sense as a way to manage contingency funding and emergency funding. What concerned us was the fact that we did see examples in which the department had to draw from its own capital funding to deal with some of the emergency situations. That capital funding would be there to make capital improvements and that sort of thing. Having to draw from that to deal with emergencies was the part that concerned us.

We also identified that of the $448 million that was spent over that four-year time period, only 1% of it, about $4 million, was spent on the prevention or mitigation activities. The department very much is in a mode of having to respond and react to emergencies. We feel that they need to be able to put a bit more focus on prevention and mitigation activities.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Your time has expired.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

There's never enough time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

There never is.

We now go to Mr. Woodworth. You have the floor, sir.