Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 20th, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You have no recollection of that. Okay.

Then let's ask about the COVID Alert app.

Ms. Jeffrey, what can you tell us about this app?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I can answer that.

The COVID Alert app was developed as a tool to help limit the spread of COVID-19. It was downloaded about 6.9 million times. More than 58,000 users entered keys into that app. The idea was that it would provide an extra tool to allow Canadians to identify when they might have been exposed to COVID-19. The app was eventually sunsetted and retired on April 4, given—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Would it be possible for you to speak more clearly and more loudly, please?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Absolutely.

I'm sorry.

The COVID Alert app was a tool to help Canadians monitor any potential contact or exposure that they had. It supplemented the contact tracing that provinces, territories and local public health had put in place.

The way the app worked was that one-time keys were generated when people tested positive through a PCR test. Those who had downloaded the app and who had been in proximity to those individuals received notification that they could have been exposed.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I have a very simple question. Was the Public Health Agency of Canada responsible for creating this app? What was the level of responsibility of the various services in that regard?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The Public Health Agency was not responsible for the COVID Alert app, although we assisted in the development of the public health rationale and its functioning. The COVID Alert app was, I believe, initially developed by the Treasury Board Secretariat in conjunction with the Canadian digital service.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Can you tell us about Mr. MacDonald's arrival? It's still very unclear. Mr. MacDonald was transferred from the Canada Border Services Agency to Health Canada, but not to the Public Health Agency of Canada. Is that correct? Yes? So we agree that he was specifically at Health Canada.

So you had a role to play with regard to the COVID Alert app, which was used very little. I know that some contracts around COVID Alert were awarded to GC Strategies.

There's one thing I don't understand. The contract may not have been awarded directly by the Public Health Agency of Canada, but if it was involved in developing and managing the application, how is it that you aren't aware that a contract was awarded to GC Strategies to create the application?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The role of the Public Health Agency was to help to inform the development of the app and the public health objectives of its development, namely to provide an additional tool for Canadians to have information to inform their risk management related to COVID-19.

The evolution of the virus and the evolution of the testing methods being used in provinces and territories meant that once PCR testing was no longer the main method of informing Canadians that they had tested positive for COVID, the app became of less utility—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Excuse me, but you're not answering my question.

I'm telling you that the contract was awarded to GC Strategies—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm sorry, I have to interrupt you, because the six minutes are already up.

Next we have Mr. Desjarlais.

You have the floor for six minutes, please, sir.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I do want to thank the Auditor General again for being present with us on this important topic.

I think the Auditor General has heard my comments in the past that I believe it is a failure on three fronts.

One, it failed to deliver good management. Two, it failed to deliver the best value for Canadian taxpayers' dollars. Three, there was the generational failure and the consecutive failure of governments to finally address the critical underfunding of the public service that has created a vulnerability in which our public service is then forced to contract very expensive and risky management companies, or app development companies in this case, to continue robbing the public purse. We've see this time and time again. We've seen it with the Phoenix pay system. We've seen it double under the Conservatives' outsourcing. Here, we're finally seeing the consequences of a drastic and dramatically underfunded public service.

I want to turn our attention to the graph that's outlined in exhibit 1.2. In exhibit 1.2 on page 7 of the Auditor General's report, it suggests that “The Canada Border Services Agency continued to rely heavily on external resources to develop ArriveCAN from April 2020 to March 2023”. You can see there are many instances. We can see, at least in some cases, the doubling of the costs to the government that would be associated with the internal development of these kinds of apps versus the costs that are presented to the government when looking at external contracts.

These external contracts balloon dramatically. Look at the Phoenix pay system today and at the billions of dollars originally contracted out by the Conservatives. We're still dealing with that terrible decision today. Now we're seeing the Liberals continue that tradition and continue to underfund our public service, and we're continuing to see what is the worst-case scenario for Canadians.

I also want to look at a very important fact that I think I would like to point to now that the Public Health Agency of Canada is present here today. The Auditor General found that there was actually an instance where the Public Health Agency and the Canada Border Services Agency undertook a process of jointly finding ways to develop this app. What we found is that, in that process, they failed to actually come to an agreement on governance, an agreement on budget, an agreement on process and an agreement as to, ultimately, who was going to be overseeing and operating this project.

This question is for the president of the Public Health Agency of Canada. How could it have been for almost a year that we saw no formal agreement between the Public Health Agency of Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency with regard to governance? Can you explain why?

[Heather Jeffrey]

We've already acknowledged that it would have been appropriate, and certainly, in the future, we will be putting in place formal governance. What I can say is—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It's certainly inappropriate, President. It's inappropriate that this took place. It's not “appropriate”. I would fail to use that word....

I want to understand why it is that the Public Health Agency undertook a process that didn't involve the appropriate level of good governance. It's established in the report that, during COVID-19, the processes the Treasury Board undertook to waive or make more expedient some of the outputs of the government at this time were not acceptable. It is not an acceptable excuse to avoid good governance models.

Again, how is it that the Public Health Agency, knowing that fact—which is a well-established principle of the Treasury Board—was able to come to an agreement with the Canada Border Services Agency without a formal agreement on governance? Is this directly a failure?

[Heather Jeffrey]

There was close collaboration between the Public Health Agency and the Canada Border Services Agency in the elaboration and development of ArriveCAN. However, there was no formal project governance put in place, and no documentation of those decisions, which the Auditor General has pointed out. We acknowledge that. We believe that is a best practice that should be put in place in all future crises, and we have taken steps to ensure that in all future responses this is part of our standard operating procedure and protocols—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Whose decision was it to not create a formal governance structure?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The intense nature of the collaboration and the development meant that these teams were meeting on a daily or even weekly basis. There was no deliberate decision to not put in place a governance structure—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

If you're meeting that often, Ms. Jeffrey, you must understand the frustration that Canadians must have and that members of Parliament must have when you've presented a situation where you're meeting in a room every single week and you still fail to address, one, the issues of cost; two, the issues of governance; and, three, finally, the ability to actually come to an agreement that sees some of these issues having fair oversight.

That to me seems like a very tenuous connection between what you think is good governance and what is truly poor governance. This is a dramatic failure, Ms. Jeffrey, and one that has cost Canadians millions of dollars. We cannot simply say that there were good intentions between the CBSA and the Public Health Agency of Canada. They met every week but failed to address the questions of governance and cost...? If what you're saying is true, then that has to be the case, or we're led to believe that this lack of governance went unquestioned and the nature of these meetings were really not ones of governance.... Which one is it?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I would say that the nature of the meetings at that time in March 2020 were focused on the significant time pressure to develop an app that would allow the border to permit the flow of critical people and goods. Therefore, the operational outcomes were the overriding subject of conversation and the necessity of layering the public health measures.

Unfortunately, as we've acknowledged, there was not formal governance throughout that time, and that lack of formal governance—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Did the minister know about the lack of formal governance?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid that is the time, Mr. Desjarlais. You will get another opportunity down the road.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We're turning now to Mr. Brock.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for your attendance. I'd like to open with a comment.

For the record, spending under Justin Trudeau's government on outside consultants and contracts has more than doubled, costing taxpayers $20 billion, and now we have a classic example of government waste and abuse of the taxpayer.

I'm going to focus my questions on you, Ms. Jeffrey.

You mentioned in the earlier rounds that ultimately you reported to Minister Hajdu at the time during the implementation of the ArriveCAN app. She was your direct minister. You also reported to the PCO, the Privy Council Office. Is that correct?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Yes, it's in the role of the president of the Public Health Agency of Canada.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Yes, and in directly reporting to the PCO, the Clerk of the Privy Council is who you'd be reporting to. Is that correct?