Public Accounts Committee on April 18th, 2024

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

No, I did not.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have just under a minute.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Excellent.

Minister, at the onset of the pandemic, there were changes to the government's contracting policies. Can you explain what these were?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Sure.

In order to execute a rapid and effective government response to the pandemic, temporary emergency contracting limit increases were brought in. However, Treasury Board was clear that as departments were lessening upfront controls in order to respond to the national public health emergency, back-end controls—such as documenting decision-making—would take on an even greater role at that time.

Any instances in which this did not occur were completely unacceptable. I know that at PSPC, I specifically directed my department to ensure there was integrity in contracting.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

With the time I have left, I want to thank the minister for her work during the pandemic and for procuring the vaccines that saved Canadians' lives.

Thank you.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

It is now Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné's turn.

You have six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for accepting the committee's invitation.

As you know—you even stated it publicly—ArriveCAN is a shocking development for Quebec and Canadian taxpayers, and obviously for each and every member of this committee.

We've discovered that ArriveCAN is but the tip of the iceberg and that this file points to a number of issues in Canada's public service.

As for you, minister, you've had an impressive career. During the pandemic, you were Minister of Public Services and Procurement. When the ArriveCAN contracts were signed, you then went on to become Minister of National Defence. Some people have noted the fact that David Yeo's employment at the Department of Defence was confirmed when you were Minister of National Defence and Mr. Yeo's business had contracts with the Department of Defence. So he was in a conflict of interest.

Now here you are at Treasury Board, one of whose roles happens to be to define the conflict of interest policy.

I'd like to know how your experience allows you, today, to never repeat all the mistakes that were made these last few years.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I'd like to correct the record. I was not Minister of National Defence when the individual in question was there. The fact is that I was appointed President of the Treasury Board in July, when he started in September. So it's not accurate to say that I was there when he was.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Based on the information I have, you were still in office on June 13, which is when he was informed of the selection. He only took his position in the fall, but the selection process occurred when you were still in office.

In any case, that doesn't change much to the question I asked about your experience, what it's taught you and how it can help ensure that none of this happens again. After all, you have a responsibility and a duty to be accountable.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

I thank you for your question, and also for the opportunity I'm given to answer it.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but on March 20, I announced along with my colleague Mr. Duclos, Minister of Public Services and Procurement, a series of measures to improve oversight of departmental practices and processes and to support efficient management across the whole of government. For instance, we now have horizontal audits in some of the larger departments in order to assess their governance, decision-making and controls related to professional services contracts.

I've also introduced a new edition of our guide for managers who are responsible for contracting with third parties. Lastly, we will be reviewing our conflict of interest policy yet again. So obviously, we will be taking steps. We continue to work on this but as the Auditor General stated, the problems were at the Border Services Agency, who will now have to keep following the rules.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

From your global understanding of the situation, would you say that everything has been cleaned up at the Border Services Agency?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Of course we have the received the report from the Auditor General.

However, we're still waiting on the RCMP's report and we're still following the necessary recommendations. We also intend to follow the RCMP's recommendations. That said, I can't just wait around. I'm a woman of action. That's why I've announced these measures. To the extent possible, I'd like for us to take measures at Treasury Board.

Annie Boudreau, who's with me today, will be able to answer as the new comptroller general.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I'm sorry, but my time is limited and I can only ask one more question with the time I have left. We'll be able to hear from Ms. Boudreau later.

The following question is quite important. I think that Quebeckers and Canadians need to hear it. Now that you're the President of the Treasury Board, do you believe that Quebec and Canadian taxpayers got their money's worth during the pandemic when $60 million was spent on ArriveCAN?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

As we know, ArriveCAN was developed in an emergency, when the country was going through a hard time. We needed to protect our borders and our population.

That said, the Auditor General said that we should have been able to get more for that amount of money if we had taken a different approach.

I'd like to ensure that the people who work at our borders keep following Treasury Board rules. These rules need to be followed. That's what's most important to me, as President of the Treasury Board.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next up, we have Mr. Desjarlais.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to the minister for being present.

I agree that rules have to be followed. In the Auditor General's report, page 8, finding 1.33 reads as follows:

Given the urgency created by the pandemic, the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat encouraged government organizations to focus on results while still demonstrating due diligence and controls on expenditures. To support this direction, the agency invoked exceptions so that certain procurements were not subject to the provisions of the trade agreements and the Government Contracts Regulations and allowed for the consideration of a non-competitive approach to address urgent needs.

There were rules in place. We had the government contracts regulations, which would have prescribed, for example, that the government could issue a non-competitive contract, which ultimately went to GC Strategies. That was part of how they were able to get access to the government service.

I also want to highlight how important this is. This isn't just a one-off; Canadians are used to seeing multiple corruption schemes like this, regardless of who is in power. Since 2006 we've seen a massive increase in outsourcing and vulnerabilities, as the Auditor General's report outlines. It's very clear that some rules and the exceptions for those rules were waived.

Minister, you were the Minister of Public Service and Procurement Canada at the time, for which these regulations were waived for the purpose of allowing non-competitive contracts.

Do you regret that now?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I do not regret being able to procure vaccines for our entire population so that by July 2021 all Canadians who were eligible had access to two vaccines. We led the world in vaccine procurement. When the Auditor General did her analysis of our vaccine procurement, she found no irregularities.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I would agree with that, Minister. I want to thank you for that work in procuring vaccines. It's an important piece of how we were able to combat that virus. The Auditor General also agreed that regardless of the work in regard to the procurement of vaccines, there was no excuse to waive the regulations and rules in relation to that.

Would you agree with the Auditor General's finding that these regulations should have been kept in place?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

We were clear at the Treasury Board that when departments were lessening upfront controls in order to respond to the national public health emergency, back-end controls, such as documenting decision-making, took on even greater decision-making importance.

We, at Treasury Board, communicated this direction in writing to deputy heads. It was necessary for these flexibilities to be in place in order to do the procurements. By the same token, the departments were obliged to ensure that they were writing down and documenting the decisions they were making.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I appreciate that answer, Minister, but I'll quote the Auditor General:

I have to say that I am deeply concerned by what this audit didn't find. We didn't find records to accurately show how much was spent on what, who did the work, or how and why contracting decisions were made. That paper trail should have existed. Overall, the audit shows a glaring disregard for basic management and contracting practices throughout ArriveCAN's development and implementation.

She went on to state the following:

Government organizations needed to be flexible and fast in responding to the COVID‑19 pandemic

-—and I give you that. It was a difficult circumstance—

but they still needed to document their decisions and demonstrate the prudent use of public funds. In this audit, we found serious failures and omissions everywhere we looked.

These aren't my words, Minister. These are the words of our Auditor General. We have to take them quite seriously. I want to be able to do my best as a member of the public accounts committee to give Canadians the best perspective I possibly can. I know this issue of ArriveCAN has been deeply partisan, and it deeply troubles many of us that it has become that way, but I want to find a way to give true accountability on this issue, which is why I submit that those regulations had to be more flexible.

However, I agree with the Auditor General that what happened was inappropriate and should not have happened.

Do you agree with the Auditor General's comments made on February 12 that there still needed to be documentation of decisions and the demonstration of the prudent use of public funds?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I do. Of course I do. I've stated it many times, and I'll state it here again today. I brought this report with me as well. I have read it numerous times. I agree with the Auditor General. I agree with her recommendations. I will note that her recommendations relate to the CBSA and to the Public Health Agency of Canada.

Once again, I agree that we need to ensure documentation; we need to ensure compliance with government policy; and we need to ensure that whatever policies are in place are being respected by deputy heads and everyone who is working under their watch.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I appreciate that.

Now I want to move to a particular issue that was announced earlier this week in relation to the budget.

We know that much of the work in procurement and what happened with ArriveCAN was because of the deep tradition of outsourcing work to wealthy contractors with preferential access to the government. They have been profiting like a systemic rot since that time. It's a very difficult circumstance Canadians find themselves in, particularly due to the reality of the affordability crisis. It's hard for Canadians to witness a government not be able to track or even know the amount of money the ArriveCAN app cost.

I hope you understand and can sympathize with Canadians who are struggling right now to pay for their bills, rent and groceries while seeing the hard-earned dollars they are paying toward taxes not being used properly. I have sympathy for that. I would hope that governments since 2006, when this started increasing, could heed that message.

Why is it that over 5,000 public service employees were told on Tuesday that they may be out of a job? The government's excuse is attrition. This will hurt the public service.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Desjarlais. That is your time.

I'm going to allow the minister to answer. You got your point in.