Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 9th, 2023

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry. What I want to focus on, though, is.... I don't have the expertise to know if those things you talk about are the right things to do or not the right things to do. I can just look at the results. For some of these new strategies you're talking about, are they things that you've been at for a while? Because if you've been at them for a while and they aren't working, maybe it's not the full picture or it's something else.

I guess the question I'm trying to drill down on is this: Are you seeing that this isn't working and that we need to try something else, or are some of these things you're talking about brand new strategies that you're putting forward to try to address what has not worked up until now?

[Anne Kelly]

Some of them are brand new. Like I said on the virtual correctional program delivery initiative, we're really excited about it because we believe that it's going to allow for more timely access to programs, which is essential. It's critical that offenders complete programs, because they have a better chance at succeeding in the community.

Alain and I met with three chiefs in the community—the Nekaneet First Nation, Beardy's and File Hills Qu'Appelle as well—the tribal councils, and we talked about.... Actually, I'm going to meet with Chief Ananas. We're actually reaching out to the community. We have indigenous recruitment officers who go into the community to try to recruit indigenous people.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I think I might be out of time.

I'll just say quickly that we appreciate your sincerity, but in eight years, it's not working.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We are well over the time.

Thank you, Commissioner.

Ms. Yip, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for coming and for answering some very tough questions.

This is both heartbreaking and frustrating, because we've heard about these same issues before.

In your opening remarks, Ms. Kelly, you mentioned that the CSC has been working to develop a national Black offender strategy. What work has been done to launch this strategy?

[Anne Kelly]

First of all, we've developed an ethnocultural action framework. There's some training in diversity and cultural competency. The results are good in terms of people who have participated.

We also have qualitative research, which we've done with the Nipissing University. They're talking to Black offenders to get their lived experiences. That's going to inform our policies and practices going forward.

We also have an ethnocultural advisory committee that's very active. One thing we're piloting is the Black offender social history. Similar to the indigenous social history, we're looking at the Black offender social history. This is something that they're quite excited about.

These are the types of things...and reaching out to the communities. One thing, both for indigenous and Black offenders, is that it's fairly well structured in the institution. They have access to programs and to elders. However, when they go back out to their communities, sometimes the supports aren't there. We're doing an outreach initiative as well, to bring in the communities to the institution so they can offer support when the offenders are released.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You talked about the qualitative part, but what about the collection of disaggregated data in this strategy?

[Anne Kelly]

We collect data specifically for Black offenders. We have that. We always look at overall indigenous...and Black as well. We have that data.

As I mentioned before, in terms of the percentage of Black inmates in custody, it's actually gone down. It used to be 9.2% and it's gone down to 8.7%. Black offenders, when they are released, actually do better than the overall population.

For indigenous offenders, I just want to say that they do well too. We've seen an improvement. It used to be in the high seventies, but now it's 83.5%.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Why do you think they're doing better? Are there programs that are more targeted to the issues? I'm trying to compare it to the indigenous statistics you just mentioned.

[Anne Kelly]

This is something that we're actually looking at—the why. We see that Black offenders, as the Auditor General mentioned, tend to be placed initially at maximum security. It's slightly higher than for overall offenders. They complete programs, but when they are released, they tend to do quite well. This is something that we need to look into further.

Larry, I don't know whether you want to add something.

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

We have what we call our integrated correctional program model and a number of streams. Some are for aboriginal-specific delivery: One is called a multi-target program, and one is directed towards sex offenders. In general, for all offenders, we have a multi-target program and one for sex offenders as well.

We also have institutional maintenance. We have community maintenance. We see from our evaluations that there are substantial reductions in reoffending and returns to custody. We think that's contributing to successful reintegration at the moment.

Now, we're unpacking that data for different groups—in particular for Black offenders—to examine, out of that data, how they are benefiting from these programs as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Yip, we need a very brief question with a very brief answer.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Can you tell us more about the 30% figure in terms of overriding...? What can be improved?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Again, I'll press for a brief answer only, please.

[Anne Kelly]

On the overriding, the concordance rate between the custody rating scale and the overall offender security level is 75%. With regard to the 25%, for Black offenders, they are underwritten to lower security 16% of the time and overwritten to higher security 9% of the time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We are going into our third round. It is my intention to get to a fourth round, but it will be truncated, with probably only three minutes per member. However, for this one it's a full five minutes for government and official opposition members, and the normal time for the third parties.

We turn now to Mr. McCauley.

You have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Williamson.

Mr. Desjarlais, I appreciate your comments.

One of the issues on the several visits I've made to the women's penitentiary in our riding is allowing open drug use. One is allowing predatory males on site. A big one—and Mr. Desjarlais brought it up—is a lack of facilities in western Canada. You've talked about indigenous recruitment. We don't have a school in western Canada to train women CSC employees. They have to go out east.

I made a request to the government two years ago. I got no response. This obviously is a vital issue. I think it would go a very long way to solving some of these systemic issues. This was a perfect example of a systemic issue that we know about that we are forcing upon the system.

Is CSC considering a school so that we can recruit and train local indigenous people from the Prairies to help out? Also, are there plans for another facility in western Canada so we're not uprooting family? Family support is very important. It's impossible for many of these families to come out from even neighbouring Saskatchewan to visit and give support. Are there plans for that?

[Anne Kelly]

You're absolutely right.

When I speak with indigenous people, the one thing they say is that it's really difficult for them. We have an academy in P.E.I., and we have an academy in Kingston for training. They don't want to be away from their families.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm aware of that. I just stated that.

[Anne Kelly]

Yes, exactly.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks for repeating what I said, but, please, the question is whether there are plans to have a school on the Prairies.

[Anne Kelly]

During COVID, because we didn't want people to travel, we started having training at our regional facilities. Obviously, that helps.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Is there a long-term plan to set up a school so you can properly recruit indigenous women from the Prairies and more importantly from Edmonton?

[Anne Kelly]

This is something we've been discussing.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Is it past the discussion stage?

What will it take to get past the discussion stage?