Public Accounts Committee on March 23rd, 2023

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

I think it's a reasonable request to say that if you adopt the motion, we will do that. I personally think it's reasonable to say that we would consult with you guys about whether there are other things that you want, such as being in the room, for example. That's my view.

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left, or is that it?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You still have just under two minutes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Okay.

Coming back again to.... I want to understand trade secret information and pricing. Can you give me anything else specific that you're really concerned about? Again, I'm trying to see why they would be of concern in a locked room, but let me understand.

What other elements concern you, specifically? Do you also need your legal teams on that? Okay.

It's unfortunate that your legal teams aren't here with you right now, because they've had ample notice of this, but I understand. You came. It's not an easy job. I think we've had as much out of you as we can today.

Again, I really thank you for coming.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to stop the clock. I'm going to interrupt you a bit.

This is to reinforce the view from this committee and Parliament that we're not obliged to negotiate with the companies to receive these documents. You're taking us down a path that has both me and the clerk nervous about setting up conditions for Parliament to view documents.

I'm saying this now, because you still have a minute left. You can ignore what I'm saying or respond to this with questions, but this is a courtesy. It was a motion that was passed by the committee. I'm pleased that we've heard from these witnesses, but we're not required to negotiate with companies to receive any documents.

I think that's clear, but—

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I never—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You're taking us down a path here, and I don't want any false expectations left with any of the witnesses, okay?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Chair, number one, I made a clear amendment to the motion, so that it would have to come through an amendment to the motion. That would be there, and then the committee would have voted on it.

Number two—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Housefather, I'm not arguing. I wanted to make it clear—

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I understand, but I want to make it clear.

Number two, I'm not saying it's a precondition. I'm saying that if the committee says that the committee will view the documents in an unredacted way in the legal clerk's office, but that prior to that date, it will consult with the companies to see if they have any ideas that the committee is willing to accept, that's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's fine. I'm going to start the clock again. I just wanted to flag that with you.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I was not in any way suggesting it would be a precondition or that—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes. I didn't want to leave the witnesses with that. Okay. Thank you.

You have one minute to go.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Okay, thanks.

Is there anything else? Do you want to make any last comments or last arguments to the committee?

[Patricia Gauthier]

I'll start.

I'll just go back to the context that is so important here. It's so important because it's easy today, literally three years after the pandemic started, to think out of context about the terms and conditions that were negotiated.

I say this because it's so important. We already have forgotten how it was to be under curfew in Quebec, to be in long-term care facilities that were completely closed and you could not see your grandma, your parents or anybody. We've already forgotten, I think, the pain that the country went through as we went through the pandemic and how we turned over every stone.

Fabien talked about Pfizer bringing millions of doses of vaccines. It was more than they were planning for. It was the same thing with Moderna. We negotiated with the U.S. to get the first doses out of the U.S. to come to Canada so that we could get the two-dose summer that was promised to Canadians.

I can tell you that we have all worked together with parliamentarians and government officials for the benefit and the greater good of Canadians.

I'm a Canadian, and I'm from Trois-Rivières. This was done for our benefit. It's important to keep that in mind when we look at contracts. Things shouldn't be based on what we know today.

Hindsight is 20/20, but it's important to look at things in the context of the crisis we were going through. It's also important to understand that confidentiality is super-important in that context as well. We were able to move quickly and have the flexibility to do what we needed to do for the country because we had safeguards. Changing the rules of engagement as we progress in a partnership makes it difficult to create a predictable, stable and secure environment.

I want to leave you with my personal perspective. I think context is very important. I can assure you that personally, it was the craziest two years of my whole career. I would not do it any differently, and it was for the greater good of Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much. I think that's a good closing argument on behalf of you and all your colleagues.

I do want to thank our two witnesses online and the three who are in the room for coming in. I know this went longer than expected. I appreciate your patience with us. I appreciate your appearing here. As it has been noted, there can be curveballs in these committees, and I appreciate your coming in today and staying the extra hour.

I'm going to suspend the meeting for about 10 minutes so folks can stretch their legs and get some food.

I will excuse the witnesses. Thank you again. You're free to go. We appreciate your being here.

I'll be back in 10 minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Colleagues, I'm going to pick things up again.

There was general agreement that after the testimony we would move to our colleague's motion. I kept the meeting delayed a little longer because I knew that some discussions were going on.

I'll turn to the motion's sponsor, Madam Sinclair-Desgagné, and then I suspect it will go to Mr. Housefather, but I'd like a little direction, please, because I was not a party to these discussions.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't want to slow the process down too much. I think we've heard some interesting testimony, insofar as the arguments put forward were strictly of a commercial nature to protect competitive advantages, which is something every company naturally wants. That's why governments and institutions like Parliament, are generally there to defend their fellow citizens and consumers.

So I hope that we will have the support of government members on a motion that was drafted carefully and reasonably. That's why I hope we'll be able to reach consensus on this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Go ahead, Mr. Housefather.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I very much appreciate the collaboration of our colleagues. I would indeed like to remind everyone that the members of the committee are simply members, and not government members of Parliament. We are all there to collaborate in that capacity.

Mr. Chair, if it's okay with you, I have some small amendments to the motion. They're all geared toward maintaining confidentiality, because I think that was the goal of all of us. It was made very clear today to the companies that these documents will be retained as confidential.

I'll wait for the clerk to be back at his desk.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We're ready. Go ahead.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Chair, I would propose to amend the motion in part (a). In the third sentence, after “and that no personal mobile or electronic devices”, I would say, “or recording devices of any kind be permitted in the room that day, and that no notes may be taken out of the room”.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

The clerk has a question.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Cédric Taquet]

If I may, would you have that in writing?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Yes. I have it in writing. I'll hand it to you afterwards.

[The Clerk]

Thank you very much.