Public Accounts Committee on March 23rd, 2023

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No. I'm just asking, are you aware of any? The reason I ask, you know, is that the Government of Canada, we purchased a lot, but we've also had about a billion dollars' worth of vaccines stale-date, which we've had to discard.

I'm curious, you know. Again, for Pfizer, with the Brazil contract, one of the issues is that Brazil had to seek permission to donate to poorer countries or other countries. I'm curious. Did Pfizer then perhaps refuse permission for Canada to donate excess vaccines to help out poorer countries abroad?

[Najah Sampson]

There is a process in place here in Canada, and it has been exercised for Canada to donate excess doses to other countries. In fact, it was made public that—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Did Pfizer ever refuse permission?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. McCauley, I'm afraid that is the time.

[Najah Sampson]

Here in Canada, we have not refused permission.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I'm glad you pointed out the presence of our law clerk, because I do want to start with a question there.

Sir, is there anything that has been said with respect to the powers of parliamentarians to compel documents...? A number of things have been said in that vein here today. Is anything that you've heard incorrect?

[Michel Bédard]

I heard references to the power to compel the production of documents and the committees. This is a power that is delegated by the House, and the committee has a right to compel the production of unredacted documents.

Now, the committee can hear concerns and put in place safeguards or measures with the view to protect confidentiality, and from the reading of the motion that the committee is debating, which is before the committee, measures with that purpose are proposed.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

This is a legal power. This isn't some kind of suggestion. This is something that carries the weight of law.

[Michel Bédard]

The power to send for records is part of the parliamentary privileges of the House of Commons. Privileges are written in the Constitution, so they're constitutional in nature. They are legal and constitutional. They're also recognized by the Parliament of Canada Act, and per section 5 of the Parliament of Canada Act, it's expressly stated that they're part of the law of the land of Canada.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I thought it was important, colleagues, to make sure that we have the law clerk on record.

If I could turn to the witnesses now, I certainly want to ask you about the motion and what you're worried about with respect to the motion, but I also think about this from the perspective of our constituents, whom ultimately we're representing.

You've raised a number of concerns about the motion, but I wonder if you could explain those concerns in very basic terms, in terms of how, if this motion were to go ahead, it would impact negatively the everyday person economically and socially.

I'll give you a concrete example. In our health system, would there be negative impacts for the overall well-being of Canadians in terms of the providing of necessary vaccines, for instance, or other impacts on jobs? If this motion were to go ahead, what would be the ultimate negative consequence for the everyday person we represent in our constituencies? That's ultimately, I think, a key question that needs to be wrestled with as we debate and discuss the matter.

We could start with Mr. Baylet and then move to Ms. Sampson, Ms. Gauthier and Mr. Tada.

[Jean-Pierre Baylet]

Thank you for your question.

I can't tell you today what this impact might be on the people you represent. What I am worried about is that the information on things like prices could fall into the hands of my competitors. I think it would be a problem for Sanofi.

We are active not only in Canada, but other countries as well. In contracts, the price is one of many factors that needs protection, to allow for competition in accordance with international rules. No competitor should be given a particular advantage.

As the Sanofi representative , that is my concern today.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sampson, to the everyday person—the nurse, the teacher, the firefighter and so on and so forth—if something like this goes through, how does it jeopardize anything in their lives, potentially?

[Najah Sampson]

I appreciate the question. Thank you.

I live here in Canada, and I have close to a thousand colleagues and employees here in the country. Just to go back, I think Canadians recognized how swiftly the government and vaccine manufacturers moved in the wake of the pandemic to ensure these vaccines were made available as fast as possible.

There is an unprecedented level of co-operation up to this point, and I think that resulted in the protection and the saving of lives in Canada across the board. Hopefully, everyone understands that and is aware of that—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

There is limited time, with great respect. I'm sorry.

Ms. Gauthier, if you could...?

[Patricia Gauthier]

This is a hypothetical question, so it's quite hard to answer.

What I can say is that the safeguards we have in the agreements have allowed us to focus on bringing doses of vaccines to Canadians. On December 24, 2020, we had 168,000 doses landing at Pearson just on time for Christmas, before when we were planning for. We turned every stone—every stone—to bring those vaccines to Canadians.

That's because we knew we had safeguards of confidentiality in the agreements, so we could focus on what mattered for Canadians. That's what we did. Hypothetically, I think we can think about what would happen if the environment changes. I can leave it to—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Your work is very much appreciated, to be sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Witnesses, the clerk just reminded me—and I'm sorry this is coming so late—that we're going to keep you here beyond 6 p.m. because we started late. I appreciate your patience with us. There will be another series of questions. I should have mentioned that off the top. It is standard that, when the House holds votes, committees start late, so if you'll please indulge us, I will endeavour to move things along quickly.

Mr. Kram, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to circle back to the Auditor General's having access to the unredacted documents. We've heard from Pfizer already, so I wonder if we could just quickly hear from the other four companies.

Were all of you opposed to the Auditor General's having access to unredacted copies of the contracts?

[Jean-Pierre Baylet]

Thank you for your question.

I can confirm that Sanofi was opposed to providing the Auditor General with an unredacted copy of the document.

[Patricia Gauthier]

Thank you for your question.

I must say that the past two years went by as if we were in a fog. That's what happens when you are single-handedly running a business and supplying millions of vaccine doses to Canada. I honestly can't even remember what happened during that period. That's why I couldn't possibly give you an accurate answer to your question.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Tada, we haven't heard from you in a while. If you could answer as well, I'd appreciate it.

[Toshifumi Tada]

I can't comment on that, but given the situation we face now, we are not opposed to the full disclosure of an unredacted copy of the contract to the committee, as long as confidentiality is kept.

Thank you.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you.

Mr. Baylet and Ms. Sampson, did you communicate your concerns to members of the government before they provided unredacted documents to the Auditor General?

[Jean-Pierre Baylet]

Thank you for your question.

I confirm that Sanofi expressed its concerns in writing with respect to the disclosure of this unredacted document.