Public Accounts Committee on June 15th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Good afternoon, everyone.

I now call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 71 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, April 24, 2023, the committee resumes its study of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation.

I'd now like to welcome our witness.

Joining us by video conference, we have Mr. Mel Cappe, as a professor.

We've never met, sir, but it's nice to see you. Thank you for joining us today.

Mr. Cappe, I understand you have an opening statement. You have the floor for five minutes. It's over to you.

You're on mute, Mr. Cappe.

[Professor Mel Cappe, Professor, As an Individual]

The most oft-stated words since COVID have been, “You have to unmute.”

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I worked in the public service for over 30 years.

I was appointed to the rank of deputy minister by Prime Minister Mulroney, then served as Clerk of the Privy Council under Prime Minister Chrétien. I continued to serve as high commissioner to the United Kingdom in the first government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

I am now, actually, not a professor, although my students call me that. I am titled a distinguished fellow at the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy at the University of Toronto.

From 2016 to 2018, perhaps relevant to this hearing, I was a mentor for the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation. I originally declined to accept the committee's invitation to appear on the matter of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, because I felt I had nothing to contribute to the committee's study of the matter. When the committee requested a second time, I agreed to appear. However, I do not want to disappoint the committee. I still believe I have nothing to contribute to the committee's understanding of the issue.

I was the Clerk of the Privy Council from January 1999 to June 2002, when the Foundation was created.

When former prime minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau passed away in September 2000, I was, indeed, the clerk. As the government considered how to commemorate former prime minister Trudeau, I postponed cabinet consideration to allow for the preparation of alternatives and a more structured and disciplined deliberation of the means of honouring the deceased former PM.

After that, I believe the industry department, Canadian Heritage and the Treasury Board Secretariat worked on proposals. To the best of my recollection, I had no further involvement in the creation of the foundation or the government's relation with it. I was preoccupied with the preparations for a transition of government, a pending election, the implementation of the new government's agenda, and then, most unfortunately, the closed border with the United States and everyone else—the closed airspace after 9/11 and the decision to send troops to Afghanistan. I was involved with the preparation of the budget and the Speech from the Throne. As far as I can recall, I had no further consideration of the Trudeau Foundation.

On February 20, 2002, the then minister of industry, Allan Rock, announced in the House the creation of the scholarship program under the aegis of the P.E. Trudeau Foundation. I left Ottawa in June of that year, 2002. Apparently, I'm told, the government ultimately signed a contribution agreement with the foundation in May 2004. By that time, I'd been in London as high commissioner for two years.

In addition, from 2016 to 2018, I was mentor to two Ph.D. students who were fellows of the foundation. One was a pediatric oncologist at SickKids hospital in Toronto working on a Ph.D. in public health at McMaster University. The other was a student from Oshawa working on his Ph.D. at Oxford University in public health in West Africa. He now has his Ph.D. and is the departmental lecturer at Oxford University. He recently told me he hopes to find an academic position in Canada in the next year or two. These two young men of extraordinary talent and promise were typical of the fellows I met at the foundation. They give me great hope for the future of Canada.

I've now told you pretty much everything I know about the Trudeau Foundation, but I'm happy to answer questions about the foundation if I know anything about it that might help you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Cappe.

I have to say, I've been a fellow but never a distinguished fellow, so I appreciate that correction from your side as well to make sure we get your title correct.

I appreciate what you had to say and all we ask is that you attempt to answer our questions as straightforwardly as you possibly can, and we'll take it from there.

Bells will go off. I'm going to try to get through at least the first round prior to voting so there might be a pause, Mr. Cappe, and then we'll resume things after votes. I think you know the system here. We sometimes have these speed bumps during committee but we will proceed as best we can.

Without further ado, I'm going to open things up with the Conservative side.

I'll start with Mr. McCauley.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Cappe, thanks for joining us today. I appreciate your opening statement and your comments about perhaps some difficulty in answering, but I certainly appreciate what you can offer from your extensive experience.

The foundation falls under the Accountability Act. I'm wondering if you have thoughts on what would have changed for obligations they might have pre and post. On the governance structure, were you involved in any way or did you have any feedback, learn anything, about the governance process with the foundation?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I'm going to speak on what I know, but I'm not the authority on this. I did see Mr. Knubley's testimony before the committee earlier in the week, and I would just add a precision to the way he characterized the status of the foundation.

He said that it was within the portfolio of the industry department. Actually, it's incorporated under the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act. My understanding is that it actually is not subject to the Accountability Act.

What it is subject to is a contribution agreement between the Department of Industry and the foundation. Beyond that, I really don't know much more about it.

When I was at the foundation, I did participate in a couple of events, meetings that we had with fellows and with mentors, one of which was in St. John's and then we flew up to Happy Valley-Goose Bay and then on to Rigolet in a remote part of Labrador. At that time, my understanding was that the members of the corporation elected the outside board members. That's really all I know.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

They actually are covered under the Accountability Act. Oddly enough, they're subject to access to information requests.

Were you a mentor at all at the same time as Stephen Kakfwi?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I had known Mr. Kakfwi before when he was premier of the NWT. I think he was at the St. John's meeting I mentioned.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Are you aware of the sexual harassment suit against the foundation?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

Only what I heard you raise at the committee. I'm not aware of anything more.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You mentioned you were a mentor to two students. I think that's phenomenal.

Are you aware of the rather over-the-top paperwork involved, including contracts? I understand it's a 60-page agreement that students have to sign giving up a fair amount of their rights.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I don't know. I looked for the contribution agreement between the government and the foundation online and I came across, rather, the agreement between the foundation and the students, but other than that, I don't know anything about it.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You're not aware of the two students you mentored having to sign such forms.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I know they have to sign something, but I don't know what it was.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Apparently it's about a 60-page agreement that limits a lot of their rights for protection under such issues, and also to perhaps speak out or hold the foundation legally accountable and liable for any actions they take.

I'm curious. If you look at the Trudeau Foundation as it's set up, based on your rather extensive experience.... There's a fair amount of taxpayers' money, $125 million, which is about $206 million in today's dollars, so it's getting up there. How would you propose that parliamentarians hold the board accountable for that money and their actions?

The reason I ask that is I look at the scandal with Hockey Canada, which is not a government organization but receives government money—it's the same with Gymnastics Canada—and I see parallels in a way between the actions of the two, which are taxpayer funded.

How would you think, in your experience, parliamentarians should hold them accountable for that money?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

With all due respect, sir, I think you should hold the government to account, first of all, but the contribution agreement that was signed between the government and the foundation should be the means by which they're held to account. It's a subtlety and a small point, but it's not an insignificant one.

My only failing is I spent too much of my career in the Treasury Board Secretariat and spent a lot of time worrying about exactly these issues. Given that the federal government was giving so many grants and contributions, whether it was in sports, as you noted, or in the case of scholarships, the government needs a way of holding them to account, and Parliament needs a way of holding the government to account.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Being concerned about that is never a failing, sir. Thank you for your concern. I will agree with you there.

We've heard—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. McCauley, you're actually out of time.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'll save it for the next round.

Thanks, Mr. Cappe.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to Professor Cappe for being here.

Sir, you have added to the record now in terms of experiences working with graduate students through the Trudeau Foundation. Could you elaborate a little more on the experiences you have had and where they have led in terms of the interactions with students, who sound to be doing quite well and have turned into a success? What has that meant to you personally?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

It was a wonderful experience.

Frankly, I think most of the fellows were women. I just happened to have two young men as mentees, and they are going to set the world on fire. They have all this talent, which the foundation actually helps develop.

The young chap I mentioned who's teaching at Oxford sent me a note recently where he said, “I would never have finished my doctorate if not for the financial support, professional network and social and intellectual camaraderie that I was lucky enough to receive as a scholar.” He went on, with a tug at his forelocks, to me saying the mentorship aspect of the program was good too.

Frankly, I would be happy to work for either of these two gentlemen.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

As anyone who's been to graduate school knows, it's a challenge, and certainly it's helped along when you do have mentors, who provide assistance of the kind you've provided. I think that's a great contribution you were able to make.

You'll forgive me for asking the question, but it does have to be asked. It's been asked of others who have appeared at committee recently on this issue, but let's confirm it. In your interactions with students and with other colleagues at the Trudeau Foundation, was there ever an effort made, an obligation put forward that the students had to live up to a certain ideological predisposition or anything along these lines? Was an open attitude taken with respect to choosing the students who would be mentored, or did they have to be liberals? Did they have to be on the centre-left of the spectrum, anything along these lines?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

The way you asked the question, I'm tempted to joke, but this is not a joking matter, so I won't.

No, there was no understanding or incentive or pressure for the scholars to be of any particular background. I met several of them who I thought were too far to one side or too far to the other, and, in fact, I should say, “and too far to the other”, but that was my personal view. They were a diverse group, and I mean diversity in the very broadest sense, whether it was gender orientation, gender itself or ethnic background and political views.

I'll give you an example. There was a seminar I went to with a bunch of the fellows and a couple of scholars on MAID, medical assistance in dying. Actually, Rob Oliphant, the parliamentary secretary, gave a talk, although he was in opposition at the time. I had a real sense that there were people around the table who were on all sides of this issue, and that's the way it should be.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I take your point. Graduate students are known to hold strong views one way or the other, as you put it, but there's nothing wrong with that either—

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

Quite so.