Evidence of meeting #79 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Arianne Reza  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Robert Wright  Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Parliamentary Infrastructure Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Jennifer Garrett  Director General, Centre Block Program, Science and Parliamentary Infrastructure Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Cédric Taquet

12:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Parliamentary Infrastructure Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Robert Wright

I would say that we're not quite at that step yet. Those are the questions that we are, indeed, working through at this point. Certainly, some of that work will be done by the indigenous carvers who have been brought on through the fellowship program. Some may well be commissioned. However, we're not quite at that point, I would say.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you.

I know there has been significant criticism about spending taxpayer dollars on rehabilitating what is heritage here in Canada, whether it be Centre Block or the Prime Minister's residence, for example. What is your viewpoint on this and the importance of maintaining our heritage and our traditions here in Canada? Also, what is your viewpoint with respect to adjusting and moving timelines for completion and the dollar amounts as well?

12:05 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

Broadly speaking, Parliament.... As we heard earlier, Centre Block is most likely the most iconic heritage building that people associate with Canada. From a federal government stewardship point of view, this is a key area where we work very closely with the legislative House on how to best proceed. Very key, as you've heard.... We're sticking to the timelines that we anticipated for completion, as well as the budget range, which was noted by the AG.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thanks very much. That is the time.

I'll turn it now to Mr. Stewart.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

October 24th, 2023 / 12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jake Stewart Conservative Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to move a motion:

That, given recent reports that the National Capital Commission (NCC) paid over $8 million to replace a barn at Rideau Hall, the committee:

(a) undertake a study of one meeting on this imprudent spending and invite the NCC and Treasury Board officials to testify on the matter; and

(b) report to the House that the committee recognize that this is an egregious waste of taxpayer money especially considering the cost of living crisis Canadians are facing.

I want to draw attention to when Minister Anand, the new Treasury Board minister, was placed in the role and said, “There is not one policy of our government that doesn't go through Treasury Board. I will be seeing everything from a policy perspective”. I think the minister made it very clear that everything goes through the Treasury Board.

In thinking about this issue, Mr. Chair.... We recently learned that the National Capital Commission paid over $8 million to replace a barn on the grounds of Rideau Hall. The list of ridiculous spending keeps growing. There are hundreds of millions for sole-sourced contracts to consultants like McKinsey, $56 million for the useless ArriveCAN app, and $6,000 for hotel rooms. The list goes on.

Canadians are struggling. Our food banks are seeing record usage. The cost of food has gone up 23%. After eight years of NDP-Liberal mismanagement, the dream of home ownership is simply out of reach for most Canadians. Mortgage costs are up 40%. As well, Mr. Chair, the cost of rent has doubled.

I also want to mention that the Auditor General wrote a report on this very issue in 2008. It was called “Conservation of Federal Official Residences”. The AG's findings were that over a 10-year period, from 1997 to 2007, the expenditure on upkeep and repairs at Rideau Hall, 24 Sussex and Harrington Lake was approximately $37 million. As those around this table know, this committee's mandate allows us to study matters that have been reviewed by the AG in recent years. This motion would fall under our mandate. I also believe it is our obligation to ensure that taxpayer dollars are wisely spent. This includes reviewing who at NCC and Treasury Board approved $8 million for a barn at Rideau Hall.

Now, Mr. Chair, when you consider $8 million for a barn.... In my riding of Miramichi—Grand Lake—as an example of why this amount of money is egregious—we had a $1.5-million request to the federal government to replace navigational aids on a port system we've had for well over 150 years. We had a $5-million request to the federal government on a $120-million pilot project that would have employed 80 people full time for probably a 25-year period. Both projects were denied by the federal government and Minister LeBlanc. He's from New Brunswick, nonetheless. You can see how spending $8 million on a barn would upset the people in my constituency, where $6.5 million would have allowed them to ship their goods from the port. Because of the cost of gasoline and the carbon tax, that would have been better for the constituency. At the same time, having a new mill would have made all the difference.

The $8 million is an egregious waste of taxpayers' dollars. That's why I move the motion.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

I have a speaking list.

I'm going to look to members for a little guidance here. I'm inclined to excuse the witnesses, because I think this is going to go on for a bit. I understand there's going to be some debate.

Is there anyone who opposes my desire to excuse the witnesses?

12:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Witnesses, you are excused. Thank you very much. We appreciate your appearing before us today. We look forward to further updates on your important project on Parliament Hill.

I think I'm going to continue things. Several members have expressed an interest to speak on this.

Madame Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor.

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To begin, I want to thank the witnesses before they leave.

As to the motion, we agree with the principle. That is not necessarily because of the $8 million at stake, but rather because we do not understand recent expenditures, including some mentioned by my colleague, Mr. Stewart, and the Governor General's expenses on the whole. In this case, the expenditure is for the renovation of a residence for an office that we consider unnecessary.

I do however have an amendment to propose in order to maintain some decorum considering the neutrality of this committee. We must not reach a conclusion before the study in question has been conducted.

This is what I propose. I will reread the motion with the proposed amendment.

That, given recent reports that the National Capital Commission (NCC) paid over $8 million to replace a barn at Rideau Hall, the committee: a) undertake a study of one meeting on this imprudent spending, especially considering the cost of living crisis Canadians are facing, and invite NCC, Treasury Board and Public Services and Procurement officials to testify on the matter; b) report its observations and recommendations to the House.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

The phrase “recognize that this is an egregious waste of taxpayer money” is therefore deleted.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

The study will probably reach that conclusion, be we will see in due course.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Very well.

Did everyone catch that? I want to make sure everyone has caught it before I seek comments on it.

Would you be able to provide it in English, or should I have Madame Sinclair-Desgagné repeat it in French again?

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I will repeat the motion.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Very well.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

There is no change to the main part. The changes are in parts a) and b).

a) undertake a study of one meeting on this imprudent spending, especially considering the cost of living crisis Canadians are facing, and invite NCC, Treasury Board and Public Services and Procurement officials to testify on the matter; b) report its observations and recommendations to the House.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Do you have anything further to add, Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné?

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Nothing further. I would just like it to be translated into English.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

It is an amendment to a motion.

Mrs. Shanahan, go ahead.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank my colleague.

I had doubts about the first translation that Mr. Stewart provided. It is always helpful to get clarification, but since this amendment—

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor, but wait one second.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, can you send your amendment to the clerk, please?

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Yes, of course.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

If anyone wants to speak, just put your hand up.

Mr. Stewart, I will recognize you after Mrs. Shanahan, and then Ms. Khalid.

Mrs. Shanahan, I apologize for interrupting you.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

I want to thank Mr. Stewart for the notice of motion. We will certainly have something to say about his motion.

Mr. Chair, I suggest we suspend for five or ten minutes so we can discuss the proposed amendment. I think we can look it over together.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I want to hear from a few more people, Mrs. Shanahan, but I will take that under advisement. There's a speaking list right now. I know that one certain member wants to speak, and so does Ms. Khalid. I'll be open to that in just a couple of minutes.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

I asked that we all take a break for a few minutes. I think everyone would appreciate that.