Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Good afternoon, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 99 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and possibly remotely using the Zoom application.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), today the committee begins a review of “Report 1 — ArriveCAN”, which was sent to committee on Monday, February 12, 2024.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses. From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan, Andrew Hayes, Sami Hannoush—all who were here yesterday—as well as Lucie Després, director. From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Erin O'Gorman, president; and Darryl Vleeming, vice-president and chief information officer.

I feel like the committee size has grown here.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of clarification, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I would like to ask you about this, and perhaps the clerk as well. I understand that officials from PSPC and PHAC were originally invited, and then unilaterally—by your choice, Chair—removed from the witness list, even though the officials were ready and able to come today. I would like to understand why, and then hopefully regain the floor so that we could discuss this matter.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Sure. In light of the seriousness of the findings tabled by the Office of the Auditor General on Monday, that ArriveCAN appears to have broken every rule in the book—the Auditor General called it “the worst record keeping” she had witnessed—I acted on my own to hear directly from one department today, CBSA, along with the Auditor General's office, to get answers to our questions. As you can see from the seats around this room, there's going to be no shortage of questions directed at both the OAG and CBSA.

I can assure members that we will hear from the other two departments in due course.

Is this a point of order, Ms. Khalid?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair, it is a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

What is the point of order?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

The point of order here, Mr. Chair, is that we've had these discussions so many times that your acting unilaterally really puts the whole committee at a disadvantage. We had officials who were ready to be here today. You're absolutely right: This report is important for us to discuss. We had officials ready to be here. Members are here, willing and able to ask them the questions that are necessary. Your taking these unilateral decisions, Mr. Chair, really undermines the work of this committee.

Public accounts is a very important committee. It is a non-partisan committee or a multipartisan one, where we all get together and we have these important discussions, Mr. Chair—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

We have been here trying to build consensus and to make sure all members of this committee have a say in how we move forward on this. We have been nothing but compliant with the will of this committee. I am just flabbergasted, Mr. Chair.

It's not only that, but now we're seeing a committee meeting scheduled during our constituency week. I do not agree with that at all, Chair. We had witnesses who were willing and able to come here today to answer the questions, and yet now not only are we looking at wasting their time—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

—and rescheduling them unilaterally by you, Chair, but we're having to rearrange our own schedules to come in during a constituency week so that we can hear from these officials, who were ready and prepared to come today, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Khalid, you're beginning to repeat yourself.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I really don't understand this, Chair, and I absolutely disagree with this.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You're entitled to disagree. As I have said before, this is an oversight committee, and I will do my best to guide it in a way that I think is best to get the answers this committee deserves. Members do have—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

There are so many members on this committee—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Khalid, you had the floor. I heard you. You repeated yourself. I'd like you to hear my answer. That was not technically a point of order. I am happy to hear it. We're dealing with this meeting in front of us today. Members do have recourse should they disagree with my decision.

I would now like to move to hear the opening statements from Ms. Hogan and Ms. O'Gorman, and I'm going to propose that we move in that direction.

Ms. Hogan, you have the floor for your opening comments, please.

[Karen Hogan, Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to be here today to discuss our audit report on the ArriveCAN application, which was tabled in the House of Commons yesterday.

I wish to acknowledge that the lands on which we are gathered are part of the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Our audit on the ArriveCAN application looked at how the Canada Border Services Agency, the Public Health Agency of Canada and Public Services and Procurement Canada managed the procurement and development of the application and whether they spent public funds in a way that delivered value for money.

I will discuss our findings, but first I have to say that I am deeply concerned by what this audit didn't find. We didn't find records to accurately show how much was spent on what, who did the work or how and why contracting decisions were made. That paper trail should have existed.

Overall, this audit showed a glaring disregard for basic management and contracting practices throughout ArriveCAN's development and implementation.

Government organizations needed to be flexible and fast in responding to the COVID‑19 pandemic, but they still needed to document their decisions and demonstrate the prudent use of public funds. In this audit, we found disappointing failures and omissions everywhere we looked.

Most concerning was that the Canada Border Services Agency did not have complete and accurate financial records. Because of this, we were unable to calculate the exact cost of the ArriveCAN application. By piecing together information available, we estimated that ArriveCAN cost approximately $59.5 million.

There was confusion right from the beginning. From April 2020 to July 2021, we found that the Public Health Agency of Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency did not work together to establish each agency's responsibilities for ArriveCAN. In this accountability void, neither organization developed and implemented good project management practices—such as developing objectives and goals, and budgets and cost estimates.

In our examination of contracting practices, we saw little documentation to support how and why the Canada Border Services Agency initially awarded GC Strategies the ArriveCAN contract through a non-competitive process. Only one potential contractor submitted a proposal, and that proposal did not come from GC Strategies.

Also concerning is that we found evidence that GC Strategies was involved in the development of requirements that were used when the agency later moved to a competitive process to award a $25-million contract for work on the ArriveCAN app. The requirements were very specific and narrow. This gave GC Strategies an advantage that other potential bidders did not have.

We also found that the Canada Border Services Agency's overall management of contracts was very poor. Essential information was missing from awarded contracts, such as clear deliverables and the qualifications required of workers. When we looked at invoices approved by the agency, details about the work performed and who did the work were often missing. This greatly contributed to our conclusion that the best value for money was not achieved.

Finally, we found no evidence that Canada Border Services Agency employees disclosed invitations to private functions they received from contractors, as is required by the agency's code of values and ethics. This created a significant risk or perception of a conflict of interest or bias around procurement decisions.

Public servants must always be transparent and accountable to Canadians for their use of public funds. An emergency does not mean that all the rules go out the window and that departments and agencies are no longer required to document their decisions and keep complete and accurate records.

As I said earlier, I believe that this audit of ArriveCAN shows a glaring disregard for basic management practices. As a result, many questions that Parliamentarians and Canadians are asking cannot be answered. The lack of information to support ArriveCAN spending and decisions has compromised accountability.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening statement. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I thank you as well.

Ms. O'Gorman, you now have the floor for five minutes.

[Erin O'Gorman, President, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

I first want to thank the Auditor General and the procurement ombud for their work. Their reports have pointed to significant gaps in procurement processes, roles and controls at the Canada Border Services Agency. I do not disagree with the term “glaring”. Their recommendations will serve as guideposts to addressing them.

CBSA's management response to both of these reports reflects the work we have already done and will be doing to make sure that all our procurement actions are aligned with policies and processes, that CBSA operates transparently and with regard for probity and value for money, and that all employees operate in a manner consistent with the CBSA's code of conduct and public service values and ethics.

You have our plan, but permit me to highlight three actions that I believe will have a material impact.

We have already created an executive procurement review committee to approve contracts and task authorizations. This is providing even more oversight on contracting activities.

We will require employees to disclose interactions with potential vendors.

We have increased the capacity of our procurement group both to oversee all procurement activities and establish a centre of expertise to help employees if they have questions or do not understand their authorities and obligations.

Of course, we are also actively improving our internal management practices more broadly. Following Treasury Board policies is a cornerstone to effective public administration, and effective public administration is critical to maintaining the trust of Canadians.

I hesitate to say the following, because it might sound like an excuse. It's not. The ArriveCAN app was built during an extraordinary time and on an emergency basis. I know that the CBSA was working as quickly as possible at the request of the Public Health Agency to replace a paper-based process that was not meeting their needs and was clogging the border. Having been at the Treasury Board Secretariat at that time, I know that the direction was for departments to take action and, if needed, move front-end controls to the back, to be biased in favour of action. But this same direction also stressed the requirement that exigent decisions and actions be documented. As the Auditor General and I have each discovered, this direction was not followed.

The absence of documentation is what is giving rise to these serious questions. Without a doubt, people were moving fast, but that doesn't justify cutting and pasting contracted resources experience directly from statements of work or collaborating with a company on a document they will eventually build on.

I want to assure you that I am doing everything I can to get a clear picture of how all of this unfolded. But I am also looking to the future.

The Auditor General's 2021 report recognized that the manual process had limitations and was not giving Public Health access to the information it needed, when it needed it. The Auditor General found that the government improved the quality of the information it collected, and how quickly it was collected, using the app. But as I have said, it's not okay that decisions were not documented, that procurement files were incomplete and that proper processes were not followed.

This audit points to significant gaps, and I do not put that at the feet of the pandemic.

So, we have a lot of work to do but I can tell you that the CBSA is comprised of dedicated and talented people. We will be united in this effort to improve our processes and maintain Canadians' confidence and trust as we continue to deliver on our important mandate.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We thank you very much, Ms. O'Gorman.

Starting out first round is Mr. McCauley.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

Welcome back, witnesses.

AG Hogan, I have a quick question. The procurement ombudsman, in his report, had commented about the bait and switch that was happening with procurement. He seemed to insinuate that it was quite widespread through the whole of government.

Do you have a sense of how systemic this issue is? Obviously there's CBSA, but do you have a sense of how systemic it is otherwise?

[Karen Hogan]

It's my understanding that the procurement ombud's report really looked at the front end of the processes more, whereas when we audit, we come in once the procurement is in place. We're looking at validating that the resources are used.

I can tell you here that there are reasons that a resource in a task authorization or a contract may not work on a contract, but I would expect that the mechanisms the government has are used to switch that up so that you don't accept an invoice with a resource that you didn't already get.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We heard from both of you about missing documents. Who within CBSA was responsible for collecting and storing those documents?

[Karen Hogan]

I would encourage you to perhaps ask the president exactly who.

I think where we saw missing elements.... I would have expected that there would have been someone who planned project oversight. That would have been perhaps the business owner or whoever was tasked with making sure that the application was developed and implemented. I would then expect someone in contracting to ensure that the file makes sense. Anyone who signs off on an invoice, making sure—