Public Safety Committee on Nov. 21st, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Are there any other comments from the officials?

Ms. Wong.

[Suki Wong, Director, Critical Infrastructure Policy, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada (PSEPC)]

To be brief, not all provinces define municipalities or how they group regional authorities as municipalities. By singling out the word “municipality”, Richard is trying to say it may exclude how other provinces define a group, cities, or regional authorities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Fair enough.

Are there any closing comments?

Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to read the relevant section here.

I appreciate Ms. Wong's last comment with respect to other municipal entities. Perhaps it could be captured, with the help of those who are appearing as witnesses, by having “municipal entities” or some other word that catches all of them. I think it's pretty clear what is meant by “municipalities”.

But this is what I find to be a concern. This is what clause 3 says:

The Minister is responsible for exercising leadership relating to emergency management in Canada by coordinating, among government institutions and in cooperation with the provinces and other entities, emergency management activities.

I'm adding the word “municipalities”.

As first responders, I can tell you that some of us were at this table as counsellors at a municipal level of government. There is a far greater expectation on municipalities than on anything else. Municipalities are first responders. We ask them to resource and to be there immediately at the scene of an emergency. There is a uniqueness to the circumstances.

The only thing this amendment does is say the Government of Canada will coordinate and work in cooperation. That's it. For somebody to infer something from that, to me, is a pretty big stretch.

When FCM came before us, they said to simply include them as municipalities to ensure they're at the table. I would have liked to have gone further to make sure we had enshrined a role for them in the consultation process, not the decision-making process. I dropped that in deference to concerns about jurisdiction. This is simply talking about including them in the discussions and treating them as something other than children.

If we're going to exclude the first responders, the people who in my opinion bear some of the largest responsibility—and I know Mr. Mungall is saying they are not going to be excluded, but if you are excluding them from being named in the document entirely, and if I cannot find the word “municipality” anywhere in this, it is a slap in the face to municipalities, period.

I've tried to offer a compromise and hold back, but I can tell you the exclusion of that speaks volumes. It's paternal, and in my opinion it's really missing the boat in terms of how we will have to work with and treat municipalities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Is there any further discussion?

Monsieur Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

There's no question that the municipalities should be at the federal table to discuss any plans. It is not a slap in the face against them. In Quebec, the municipalities are everywhere in the plan. They're supposed to be organized in the regional municipalities. It's simple.

But that's exactly what we're against. We're against having the municipalities at the federal table. If the federal government wants to organize anything, it should be with the provinces and territories. The municipalities will act toward these things.

I understand your feelings and I understand the feelings of some municipalities outside Quebec. I don't think any municipalities in Quebec will take the fact that they're not there as a slap in the face. They know very well that they should work within the province.

I think this is so basic that if there were to be an amendment like this, we would not support the legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That's clear.

Mr. Brown, please.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm sympathetic to the mover of the amendment. As a former municipal counsellor, I fully understand the importance of municipalities.

For example, in my riding, ambulance services are not delivered by the municipality; they're delivered by a service board, because there happen to be separate municipalities. They sub it out to a service board. It's not done directly by the municipality.

It's an example of where this wouldn't fit. Even though I want to support municipal recognition, it doesn't fit in the case of my riding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I have a proposal, Mr. Chair, that perhaps might be acceptable to the committee as a whole.

I just want to say to both the officials and Mr. Brown that I think the argument that we don't call municipalities, municipalities in some of the regions is a bit of a semantic argument. They all belong to the provincial-municipal associations. They belong to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities.

In fact, let me just propose this. If you look at paragraph 4(1)(f), we've used their wording already, which I assume is acceptable to the government and to the officials. If you look at the latter part, where we talk about coordination, this is ministerial responsibility as full governmental responsibility. We use the wording there: “and through the provinces, those of local authorities”. If we inserted the same wording after “with the provinces”--I'm proposing this as an amendment to the amendment that's been proposed by Mr. Holland--we would insert “and through the provinces, those of local authorities”, and then go on with the balance, “and other entities”, to cover the Red Cross and the other emergency care NGOs generally.

It would cover all those, but it would also take care of recognizing and respecting--acknowledging, really--the role the municipalities and the local authorities play as the first responders. It avoids Mr. Holland's concerns I think about a slap at them and being seen at the municipal level....

I'm proposing that. Mr. Holland has indicated that he's prepared to accept that as an amendment and to change his wording to what I'm proposing.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You were referring to paragraph 4(1)(f). Are you proposing to change the wording when we get to that clause, or are you proposing a change to what Mr. Holland...? Is this a subamendment to Mr. Holland's amendment?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It actually would take out the word in Mr. Holland's amendment. It would take out the word “municipalities” and replace it with “and through the provinces, those of local authorities”, the same wording that's in paragraph 4(1)(f). I'm not proposing any changes to paragraph 4(1)(f).

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

There's a point of order.

Mr. Holland, you had a comment on that.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

It's not my preference. If it can garner the support of the committee, I would support that. That really does change the amendment. I think we would probably have to defeat this particular amendment, if that's going to be the will of the committee, and then introduce that as a motion. I think that's probably the direction we would have to go, because it's a major change to it. But I'm amicable to what Mr. Comartin is raising as an alternative.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I'm just reflecting on what you have there, Mr. Comartin, and I think it's already implied in the original bill. Regarding “with the provinces”, does “through the provinces” really add anything?

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I think we understand that Mr. Comartin's attempt here is to include other authorities through the provinces. There's no question that we're adamantly opposed to Mr. Holland's original amendment. I know he speaks of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, but he forgets what Ontario and Manitoba told us, that they do not want us dealing directly with municipalities.

I think what Mr. Comartin is proposing here is that it takes it through the provinces. We don't go past the provinces and municipalities; the municipalities feed through the provinces, and likewise, the federal government feeds back down. I think from our perspective, that makes it acceptable in that manner. And hopefully it should be acceptable to other bodies out there, including the provinces, where we're not taking away and not stepping in front of them.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I...?

You had posed the question to me as to whether there is some significance, and I think there is. We're recognizing that there is a difference between “other entities” and the role the local authorities play. By inserting that into clause 3, we acknowledge that role. This is not in any way to demean the role the Red Cross and other agencies play, but the reality is that the first responders are the local authorities. The Red Cross and the others come in sometimes as equal partners, but usually somewhat after the fact. That's the point I think we're trying to make here. It is to recognize the significant role the local authorities play.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

A question has been posed here.

Mr. Comartin, would you remove from your amendment the term “other entities” then?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

I think the best way to handle this now, because yours is not a subamendment, is to deal with your amendment first, Mr. Holland. Then, Mr. Comartin, we can deal with yours. We'll simply vote on these two and carry on.

First is Mr. Holland's amendment.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We're now on Mr. Comartin's amendment.

I'll try to make sure I have it right here, Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Do you want me to do this, Mr. Chair?

I'm proposing, Mr. Chair, that clause 3 be amended by inserting after the word “provinces” on line 9, “and through the provinces, those of local authorities”, and then continue on with the balance of the clause as it is in lines 9 and 10.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

So you're adding those words.

Is that clear to everyone?

We're going to vote on Mr. Comartin's amendment.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I would like to have the translation. Also, I would like to see it in writing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Comartin, there's a suggestion here that would maybe make more grammatical sense and simplify things. In Mr. Holland's amendment, we could replace the word “municipalities” with “local authorities through the provinces”. Then there would be a comma and “other entities”.