Public Safety Committee on Jan. 30th, 2007

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

What is the status of the lawsuit? Is the government maintaining their position?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Yes. I can't tell you the exact stage it's at, but we are maintaining the position.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

The final questioner here is Mr. Alghabra.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the reasons we are having these committee hearings is to understand the apparent lack of enthusiasm or intent on behalf of the government to do something beyond saying we accept Mr. O'Connor's report--i.e., holding accountability measures to the conduct that happened in the past, to the mistakes that happened with regard to Mr. Arar. So we are asking questions about why there appears to be a lack of firm reaction or intent with regard to digging to the bottom of it and finding out who is responsible.

I understand you are in a delicate position here today. You're obviously making sure you don't contradict the minister, or the Prime Minister, or any of the statements you made.

On the one hand, Mr. Elliott, you tell us you were surprised by the testimony on September 28, yet you say no questions were raised in your head. I don't know, but a natural reaction by a human being, when you're surprised by something, is to at least wonder why that action happened. Even though you know it's inaccurate, it's still a legitimate thing to ask, if you are surprised by an action, why it happened. Don't you think it is part of an associate deputy minister's responsibility to convey that surprise to the minister?

On the other hand, Ms. Bloodworth, you'd say the government either has 100% confidence in the commissioner or it doesn't; yet after December 4 or 5, the Prime Minister refused to reaffirm that confidence, and said we'll wait and see what happens. So he did actually express a position where he was in between, until the commissioner resigned.

You know, we're getting the sense that we're not getting a lot of clear answers.

Mr. Elliott, again, you were surprised by the testimony on September 28. Did you have questions in your head with regard to why that testimony was not consistent with what you thought would be said?

[William Elliott]

First, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to comment on the honourable member's lead-in to his question. I would say quite strongly that on behalf of both ministers and officials, there is no lack of enthusiasm with respect to taking steps to make sure that what happened to Mr. Arar does not happen again. We took the O'Connor inquiry very seriously. We have worked very hard, both before and after Mr. O'Connor made his recommendations, to improve how it is that national security agencies and our national police conduct themselves. I guess I just react quite strongly to that.

With respect again to the questions relating to the testimony of the then Commissioner of the RCMP on September 28, I guess I would repeat that I was surprised, because, at least in part, what he said was not consistent with my understanding. Shortly after that testimony, I understood that the commissioner wanted to come back before this committee. I believed that any questions I had would be answered in his further testimony.

I would just add one other thing: in general, human communication is very imprecise. I know that when I go over the transcripts from today's testimony, there will be things where I will think , gee, I might have better said it this way. And if there are significant things, I will certainly ask to come before this committee. But it is not uncommon or surprising that one needs to clarify communications.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I would just point out, Mr. Alghabra, that I think that less than 36 hours after the Prime Minister expressed his comments on the 4th, the Commissioner of the RCMP had resigned.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

But he was in the position where he didn't advocate full confidence or lack of confidence--

[Margaret Bloodworth]

And the Commissioner of the RCMP resigned.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Let me tell you something. The unfortunate thing is that the resignation didn't even come until.... It was because of the contradiction. Nothing happened because of what happened to Mr. Arar. That is the really frustrating element. Nobody....

Even last week, the Prime Minister was asked about what the government will do about finding the people who made this mistake and holding them accountable. His response was that this is behind us and we are going to move forward. So to this day, we still have not seen the individuals who are responsible for that mistake held accountable.

The former commissioner resigned only because of the contradiction, not because of the handling of the Arar case. So we still have a lot of questions, and unfortunately we're not getting many of them answered here today. The reality is that....

Mr. Elliot, wouldn't you think it was your job to brief the minister, who is Commissioner Zaccardelli's boss, that you were surprised by the testimony in between the 28th and December 4, or November 2, the date of the letter?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Is that your final question?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

If I have more time, I have more questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You are considerably over time.

[William Elliott]

I did not think it was necessary or appropriate for me to brief the minister, no.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

All right....

We're meeting from 11 to 1 on Thursday, Mr. Holland. Is that your question?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

No, no, this is my last meeting, as I'm sure you'll be very disappointed to hear. I'm moving to natural resources.

I'm just wondering what time the committee was scheduled to meet until.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Until 5:30.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes. We have time; however, there are no more questions.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I do have one very quick follow-up question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, but first I'd like to make an announcement.

Just so you know, we're meeting from 11 to 1—our times have changed because some of you have to leave—on the border guard study on Thursday. We're also going to have, at the very end of it, a discussion on future business of the committee.

I should also make a note that we invited the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to come here next week. They are not able to come, so we will fall back on what we originally had to do, and that was to invite the Mayor of Point Edward to come with regard to the border study.

That's it for the housekeeping.

Ms. Barnes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I have a follow-up to your housekeeping. We're going to be losing our vice-chair, as you and I have already discussed, and we'll have to elect a new vice-chair. I would think it would be appropriate to have a steering committee before a House business meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We did not have steering committee meetings here, at this committee, because everything had to come to the regular committee--

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I would like to defer to the witnesses, and not take up the witnesses' time, but that's something really new to me, not having steering committees.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

If you want an explanation, everything had to come to the big committee anyway, so....

Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you.

I just wanted to explore, Ms. Bloodworth, what you had stated about the distinction you were trying to make between the point Mr. Alghabra was making, which was....

You had said, in response to one of my questions, that the Prime Minister had to have either 100% support or no support, that there was no middle ground, and that although the Prime Minister had a middle ground, where he said what in my opinion he should have said all along, that we should wait and find out what the results are of the committee's questioning, because a lot of questions are being asked and we want to wait and find out what that process is and we reserve judgment...and he took that position. And you said yes, but he resigned 36 hours later, so it's no big deal.

So did the Prime Minister know, then? I mean, when he was saying that, the distinction you're making must be that the Prime Minister knew 36 hours in advance of him resigning. That's the only way I could understand the distinction you just made. Because as far as the Prime Minister knew...as he was saying, he had no intention for the commissioner to resign, so the distinction you make doesn't jibe. The fact that he was 36 hours...it could have been 10 years later as far as he knew when he made that statement.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

First of all, I'll point out that I never said “no big deal” at any time, Mr. Holland. And I stand by what I said: no, the Prime Minister did not know--