Evidence of meeting #33 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was person.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
... I'll know it at that time. That's perfect. So I won't have to leave home.
I'd like to ask you a second question. You tell us that you consulted...
11:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Wait a minute. If you can't print it, that doesn't mean that you are the person whose name is on the list. That means that you have a name similar to that of someone who is on the list.
Let's say there's another Mr. Ménard on the list and that that person is a danger, but that it isn't you...
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I understand that, and that's what I wanted to know.
Now I want to ask you a second question. You said that you had consulted a number of organizations concerned with certain things. You no doubt have a list of the organizations that you consulted. Could you file it or send it to us?
11:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Absolutely. The list of all the organizations consulted is in the regulatory impact study that is part of the draft regulations in Part I of the Canada Gazette, but I'll be pleased to send it to you as soon as possible.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I have a third question. You said you had given lengthy evidence before the Senate. This list was prepared in the United States, wasn't it?
11:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Yes, in the fall of 2001.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
The reports that we have concerning the preparation of that list tell us that a lot of mistakes were made due to prejudices, and probably instances of revenge as well. We were told that Senator Ted Kennedy was on it, that a name of a singer by the name of Cat Stevens was on it as well, and that a lot of militant environmentalists and pacifists had been added to the list.
How are you going to avoid these kinds of errors?
11:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
First, the Canadian legislation is much more restrictive than the U.S. legislation. The American criteria for entering people on the list, as you very accurately described, were very broad. We have much more restrictive criteria, and the person must, in our view, represent a danger to aviation security.
We've very closely monitored the problems that the Americans have had with this list over the past five years, and we're going to do everything to prevent those problems from arising here in Canada. We anticipate a much shorter list than that of the Americans, which should help us control and limit mistakes. We also foresee a frequent systematic review, as I mentioned earlier, to ensure that we maintain control over the size and content of the list.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
How are you going to do that? You tell us, among other things, that you have independent staff who will be consulted in order to revise the list, or to review names that appear on the list, because people ask that their names be deleted. How will that independent staff be selected and who will pay them?
March 1st, 2007 / 11:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Those are two different topics. First, the list is prepared and reviewed on an ongoing basis by Transport Canada, CSIS and the RCMP, not by outside personnel. The information comes to us mainly from CSIS and the RCMP.
The other topic we discussed was the Office of Reconsideration, a process enabling an individual who believes he has been falsely placed on the list to appeal. We set up that office at Transport Canada because there was no independent tribunal that would be capable of hearing these types of cases at this time. We set up the office for this program and for the security clearances that we do. The office will handle complaints from the Passenger Protection Program and regarding security clearances that we would deny. That affords individuals the opportunity to have an easier and less costly process to deal with rather than go to Federal Court or use another process. We don't yet know how much such a process would cost because we don't know how many appeals there will be. However, we have set aside a budget of approximately $1.5 million a year for the Office of Reconsideration.
We've published notices in the newspapers in recent months, and we're selecting independent experts who will be chosen to hear people who appeal to the office.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
How are you going to judge the experts' ability to make those decisions? For example, if a person who belongs to the Ligue des droits et libertés or is a university law professor submitted his name, would you accept him as an independent expert or would you feel that these people were prejudiced in favour of persons who would be appealing?
11:40 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
We're looking for people who are neutral, former judges and people who are able to show that they are impartial. However, it is important to note that these aren't the people who will make the decision. The decision will still be made by the Minister of Transport. The independent expert who hears a case will make a recommendation to the Minister of Transport. He will ask him to reconsider or not reconsider his initial decision. It's a matter of judgment. We can't shift responsibility for the judgment from the Minister of Transport to an outside party.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Will the appellant be informed of the independent expert's opinion?
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
11:40 a.m.
Brion Brandt Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
I will take this one.
People will be informed of the minister's decision, but that's one person's recommendation to the minister. It's the minister's decision. It's not really a matter of receiving the opinion of another person.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
What I want to know is whether the person will know what recommendation the independent expert has made to the minister.
11:40 a.m.
Director, Security Policy, Department of Transport
That's not part of our program.
11:40 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
It's not secret. To have an Office of Reconsideration that is completely independent, Mr. Ménard, we put it elsewhere in the department. This office is so independent that I can't provide specific details such as that. This person doesn't report to me within the organization. This person is placed elsewhere in order to be independent.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
That's not my question. I consider that the simple fact of not responding is a response. I understand perfectly well. Will the person be informed of the decision by the independent expert who advises the minister?
11:40 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
We can provide you with the answer in writing, if you wish.
11:40 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
We'll do that.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Will the person who is placed on a no-fly list know why he has been placed on there, just to clarify?