Public Safety Committee on March 5th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. Thank you very much.

We'll go to our five-minute round now.

We'll go to Ms. Barnes, please.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you.

I think there is a big difference between policy that could be developed and stated by a minister and training. They are two separate things. One has been acted upon. And we're hopeful that some of your recommendations will change the training.

With respect to training, the Toronto Police Services Board told us they do eight hours of training. Do any of the organizations in B.C. do eight hours of training, or is it less than that? They said it was double the rest of Ontario in hours.

[Commr Dirk Ryneveld]

To be truthful, I can't tell you how many hours are devoted to it, but the Justice Institute of British Columbia trains new recruits, and also there are regular updates. It's an incremental training time, so I don't know how many hours are dedicated.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Does every police force use tasers in British Columbia?

[Commr Dirk Ryneveld]

Not every police force, but its use is increasing and--

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I have only five minutes, so I'm really trying to get to a lot of questions.

We've heard that you can use the taser multiple times on the same subject, and that was a policy change by the RCMP.

Could you comment on what your findings were in this area of more than one use of the taser on the same individual?

[Paul E. Kennedy]

Clearly, it is a concern, and it has come out in a number of documents in terms of what is called cycling or multiple uses. I think one of the directives was that it shouldn't be any more than 15 seconds. Each one is a five-second blast, but you keep pulling the trigger, which is cycling, so it's another five, another five, and another five. That clearly is a problem, and people have looked at it and cautioned against cycling, and they've put a maximum period of time on it.

By the way, on your other comment, the RCMP does 16 hours of training, and the instructors get four days of training. Recertification, I think, is four hours.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

We know Taser, the company, has been involved in a lot of litigation. You mentioned the study that showed there were concerns about some of the effects, and then they backed off that. That seems to be a bit of a pattern with the company, from what we've heard before. Their litigation is not just a defence of tasers; they also go after people and companies.

Mr. Kennedy, were you aware of the study that was referred to by the Office of the Police Complaints Commissioner when you did your review?

[Paul E. Kennedy]

Do you mean in the Alfred report?

[Commr Dirk Ryneveld]

No, the Intertek and Exponent studies.

[Paul E. Kennedy]

We looked at my colleague's report when we did our reports, but I can't recall that one in terms of the device.

We know there are issues with the device itself. A competitor sometimes says it's a defective product, that when they discharge the weapon and it's going through, it's not performing as per specs; that variation might be causing a problem. These are companies that manufacture conducted energy weapons talking about each other's products.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Can either of you tell me of another product out there being used when you say, “Realistically this needs more study”?

[Paul E. Kennedy]

I think Taser International is the dominant occupier of this area. In my particular case, their device is used by the RCMP entirely.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I think you misunderstood my question. Both of you have said this is something that needs more study here in Canada--independent study, not studies done by Taser or presented by Taser. Is there any other product on the Canadian market where you'd be saying that, still using the device, and not putting it on hold?

[Paul E. Kennedy]

The answer to that is probably no.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

What about you, Mr. Ryneveld?

[Commr Dirk Ryneveld]

I can't think of one offhand, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's very common that in a particular area the people who are the experts in the field are the ones who provide the studies and statistics. It's very difficult sometimes to get independent experts, because they've already been consulted by the manufacturer.

[Paul E. Kennedy]

This is a bit of a loop we get ourselves into through the Gordian Knot of whether the device causes death. At the end of the game, do you know how often? What's the material risk? I prefer to approach it on the basis that we've already authorized police officers to use guns that cause death. They're taught to shoot to the centre mass, so you're likely to die or be seriously injured.

My operating assumption is that the taser causes, at the very minimum, pain, and for some high-risk people there may be the risk of death. When I juxtapose it to a gun, the gun obviously is much more lethal than that, so for that reason I put the taser in with the baton. My assumption isn't that it's perfect and flawless. It may cause death, but statistically it's going to cause death less often. As long as you use it in circumstances where it's justifiable....

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Yes, but my point here is that when we see that they're not using it in lieu of a gun, they're using it in lieu of an earlier intervention...that's not happening with the RCMP. So that argument is totally false, I'm afraid.

[Commr Dirk Ryneveld]

I think you would find that in the drug world there are probably products that were tested, presumed safe, and subsequently found not to be as safe as expected. You have experts again, usually through the drug industry, who are....

You asked me for an example, and the only thing that comes to mind is in the drug industry.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

My own example of the drug industry is that they never put something out on the market while it is being tested, and when there is a problem they stop the usage and do recalls.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll now go to the Bloc Québécois and Monsieur Ouellet.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'm somewhat surprised to hear you say that if a person is tasered and does not die on the spot, then the taser is not likely responsible for that person's death, if it occurs later. A person could go out and shovel snow—we have had a lot of snow—and die three hours later. You would argue that shovelling snow had nothing to do with that person's death, that he would have died anyway. I find your argument somewhat fallacious.

Getting back to the use of the taser, you maintain that without the taser, officers would have to resort to using a firearm. That's what you said. I lived in England. Police officers did not carry weapons and still managed to makes arrests. So then, a firearm is not a requirement for making an arrest. Are tasers really necessary then?

Moving on to a more delicate subject, does this have anything to do with the officers, the people on duty...? Personally, I'm a feminist, but I have heard that in many police forces, many women...

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Excuse me, I'll have to ask you to take your conversation behind the curtains, as the Speaker says.

Go ahead, sir.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you. Let me reiterate my position.

Apparently, many women prefer to use a taser, otherwise they would have to engage in physical combat. It seems this is one of the reasons why the taser was introduced. Male police officers began to wonder why they couldn't use it as well, since it is a lot less taxing than having to use physical force.

Could this be one possible reason for using a taser?