Public Safety Committee on March 5th, 2008

[Paul E. Kennedy]

Yes.

I certainly would have preferred to see some movement on this. There was marginal movement in redefining active and passive resistance, but there wasn't substantial movement in—

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

They were cooperative in that they made nice with you, but they didn't conform to your recommendations.

[Paul E. Kennedy]

Be aware that this is a dynamic relationship. I am a review body, an oversight body, and my job is to identify the problem and bring it to the public's attention. I will pursue this with vigour. But I don't assume they're going to come back and say, “Yes, sir, no, sir, three bags full, sir”. I can tell you I will not go away—I will at the end of my term, but until then I will not go away. Otherwise I have failed to do my job. I will articulate my concerns, and they should articulate their response and say why they haven't complied.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

This whole question of medical professionals agreeing to a cause of death--the fact that we have a hard time getting medical professionals to say, “Yes, this man died 10 hours later because of a taser”--is never going to happen. The reason is that in the health field they will not report when they give somebody, say, an injection of a drug and that person dies five minutes later. They will not report that and say it was the drug; they will say the person died because their heart stopped.

[Paul E. Kennedy]

I agree entirely.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

So you will never, ever get medical proof that tasers kill people.

[Paul E. Kennedy]

And that is why I have not pursued that particular line of argument, because it becomes a battle of experts. As a lawyer--I've been to court--you can get experts who will say whatever can be said. You're not going to have that clarity of purpose.

I fall back on what I think should be common sense. To me, following Mr. Ouellet's observation, if I'm out shovelling snow and come back in and two hours later I'm dead on the floor, at my age you might conclude there's a connection. When it's seconds or minutes from use to death, without any evidence, I will operate on the assumption that there may in fact be a connection.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

If I can encourage you in your conclusion about the public's trust, I think we're already there. I think the Robert Dziekanski case on TV has scared the public. It has really frightened them about these tasers, and that's why I think it's so important that we move quickly on it. I'm hoping that when you produce your final report...the parliamentary secretary, I'm sure, could provide you with time with the minister. I can't think of anybody more important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll have to wrap it up here.

Let's go over to Mr. Norlock, please, for five minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

The first question is with regard to deaths, as both of you deal with police departments, as both of you are probably very, very familiar with what happens to a person after they've died in custody or during the course of a police intervention. Is there not, 100% of the time, a post-mortem?

[A witness]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

There is.

Wouldn't you say that almost 100% of the time if there's an application of force that caused the death, that's reported in the post-mortem?

[A witness]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you for coming, the three of you.

I think you are probably aware of this, Mr. Ryneveld, and probably Mr. Kennedy too, but I'll start with you, Mr. Ryneveld.

In 2004 Mr. Fred Dawe, who's president of the B.C. Schizophrenia Society, made the statement that “[...] the society believes more mentally ill people would die at the hands of police if they didn't have the stun gun.” It was reported in the Vancouver Sun on July 24, 2004, that the B.C. Schizophrenia Society has endorsed the use of tasers since 1999. The society said:

The schizophrenia movement across this country believes in the Taser, [...] We support the appropriate use of the Taser as a life-saving means of force in emergency police interventions.

Were you aware of that, sir?

[Commr Dirk Ryneveld]

Yes, I was aware of that fact, along with a number of other reports about it, both in support of and against it.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Were you, Mr. Kennedy?

[Paul E. Kennedy]

Yes, and as a matter of fact, I've currently launched my own chair-initiated complaint dealing with a situation where officers were arresting a gentleman under the Mental Health Act. He was suffering from schizophrenia. It unfortunately resulted in his death, which is very unfortunate.

I think it is true, but the key words are, as you've just said, “its appropriate use”. We'll be looking at that particular case and looking at the broader issue.

Police have evolved. I have a great deal of sympathy. There was a study recently out of the City of Vancouver where they found that 38% of officers' calls were related to people with either mental health issues or drug issues, and in the East Hastings area it was up to 50%. Because of the way policing has evolved and society has evolved, the police are first-line responders for many health issues. Unfortunately, I think some of these deaths are on police cards that might be more appropriately housed on the health side.

You can try to find a model where you intervene with someone who's in a health crisis, where it's not the first tool. It's the tool you use before you shoot somebody.

I practise in Toronto. Certainly through the seventies we had people who were suffering from mental health problems, who came down with a garden shear in their hand, approached the officer, and they were shot and killed. Everyone cried out for some kind of less than lethal device, but that's at the high end.

Clearly there is a use in all circumstances. The case is, what's the appropriate use, and let's try to minimize, if we can, the violence.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Absolutely.

[Commr Dirk Ryneveld]

I would like to comment on that last question.

We have a case that is currently under investigation. Again, it's a Vancouver Granville Street incident, which happened some months ago. The officers met a mentally ill person who came at one of the officers with what was perceived to be a weapon, and he was shot to death. The reaction from the public, along with all the complaints to my office, was to ask why they didn't taser him.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I have a couple of other quick questions.

This is primarily for Mr. Ryneveld. Are you aware of the Ontario civil oversight body for policing in the province of Ontario and the methodology of its implementation should a member of the public have a complaint against the police?

[Commr Dirk Ryneveld]

There are various organizations within the province of Ontario for oversight. One is for the Ontario Provincial Police, of course, but the other is the SIU model, where members of the Attorney General's ministry investigate complaints for serious bodily harm and death cases. That's done by a totally independent body. The rest of the complaints are handled by police officers, etc., and they report to the oversight individual.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Kennedy, do you think that would be an appropriate model across Canada?

[Paul E. Kennedy]

In terms of the RCMP, I've already advanced the legislative model that I think is appropriate.

I think the real distinction between the model vis-à-vis the RCMP and what we see provincially is the special investigative unit, SIU, which investigates serious injury, death, and shootings, such as in that case. They're actually acting as police officers doing investigations of police officers.

I have a separate initiative I'm looking at, which is the issue of police investigating the police. That's what gave rise to the SIU model in Ontario. Can the police objectively do it? My colleague has a model where you can ask another police force to do it. We've observed the programs we've put in place to ensure impartiality. There are many ways of looking at this issue. Whether every one evolves to an SIU model, I'm not sure.

Other than SIU, the rest is to have an organization as per Judge LeSage's recommendations for civilian oversight.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I have one last quick question--I suppose there could be two.

I know Mr. Ouellet asked a question with regard to guns. We know that some police forces in the world--very few--don't carry guns. Would you not say that a society evolves when the police don't carry weaponry or whatever? Society seems to manage.

Would either of you gentlemen believe in taking away the taser from police forces and make a recommendation, right now, that we should stop using tasers until someone has enough authority to say to use them? Would either of you two gentlemen recommend that right now?

[Commr Dirk Ryneveld]

I have not advocated for a moratorium on its use. I believe it has its place, but it has been used inappropriately at times, and that casts aspersions on the proper use. I would like to see it regulated, trained on, and enforced better.