Evidence of meeting #17 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Yves Dufour  Director General, Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale
Raymond Prime  Director, Centre of Forensic Sciences
Jonathan Newman  Deputy Director, Centre of Forensic Sciences
Diane Séguin  Deputy Director , Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale
Frédérick Laberge  Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to bring this meeting to order. This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. This is meeting number 17. We are continuing our study of the DNA Identification Act. It's a statutory review.

We'd like to welcome this morning, from the Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale, Monsieur Dufour. He will introduce the rest of the panel. We also have someone not mentioned on our list here, from Quebec's ministry of public security, Mr. Frédérick Laberge. The Centre of Forensic Sciences is also with us this morning, with Mr. Raymond Prime.

We welcome you all and ask you to introduce yourselves and maybe give us a little background. We'll allow you opening statements, and then we'll go to questions and comments. Your opening statements can be approximately 10 minutes, or whatever you choose. We look forward to your testimony.

Who will begin?

Monsieur Dufour, go ahead, sir. Then it will be Mr. Prime.

9:10 a.m.

Yves Dufour Director General, Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale

I would like to start by thanking you for inviting us to appear before the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. I would like to introduce the people with me today—Frédérick Laberge, Director of Biology at the Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale and Administrative Director, as well as Diane Séguin, the Deputy Director of Biology at the laboratory in Montreal.

We will read you the brief we prepared for about 10 minutes, and then we will take your questions.

In 1914, the Quebec government created the first forensic laboratory in North America, located in Montreal. Today, the laboratory is under the responsibility of Quebec's Ministry of Public Safety, and is an impressive example of a modern forensic laboratory.

Our disciplines include toxicology, biology and DNA; counterfeiting and forensic document analysis; chemistry; fires and explosions; ballistics; electrical and computer engineering; forensic pathology; and gaming equipment certification.

The laboratory's mission is to provide objective expertise in forensic science to support and further the administration of justice and police and legal investigations.

I will now describe our role. Ontario and Quebec are the only provinces in Canada with forensic laboratory facilities that perform their own DNA analysis. The other provinces and territories send their DNA work to the Forensic Laboratory Services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

The laboratory is responsible for analyzing biological samples collected by the police from crime scenes on Quebec soil. The resulting DNA profiles are unloaded to the National DNA Data Bank (NDDB) Crime Scene Index for comparison with the Convicted Offenders Index and other DNA samples in the Crime Scene Index.

The laboratory is the only organization authorized to supplement the Crime Scene Index with DNA samples collected from crime scenes in Quebec. DNA orders for offenders convicted by Quebec courts of law are executed by the Quebec police. The samples are then sent directly to the National DNA Data Bank for biological analysis and to be added to the Convicted Offenders Index. The Laboratory is not involved in updating the Convicted Offenders Index.

As regards our contribution to the National DNA Data Bank, the laboratory spends $5.7 million a year, including fixed costs, and has 50 FTEs at its disposal to meet its DNA analysis mandate. Despite its extremely limited resources, as of March 30, 2009, the laboratory had provided more than 15,674 DNA profiles to the Crime Scene Index, which represents more than 32.6% of the total number of profiles (48,227). As of the same date, Ontario had contributed more than 18,898 DNA profiles, which represents 39.1% of the total, while the RCMP laboratories contributed 14,655 profiles, accounting for 28.3% of the total.

I come now to the issue of federal funding for the Laboratory's contribution to the NDDB's mandate. As a result of negotiations on the creation of the NDDB and the role Quebec would play in this national program, it was agreed that the federal government would help offset the additional costs generated by the new NDDB-related activities. Since August 1999, Quebec has signed two Biology Casework Analysis Agreements to contribute to the NDDB's Crime Scene Index.

The first agreement, signed on August 12, 1999, was for three years—from April 1, 1999 to March 31, 2002. It provided for automatic renewal with the same conditions for a one-year term or until a new agreement could be reached, in accordance with the renewal clause.

The expiry of this first agreement was extended to March 3, 2003. The terms of this agreement stipulated that the federal government would reimburse Quebec 20% of the average cost of DNA profiles completed by the laboratory. In September of 1999, an accounting firm established that the average cost of a DNA profile was $2,645. Therefore, the federal government's contribution would be $529 per profile (20% of $2,645).

In 2004, a second agreement was signed for a three-year period (April 1, 2003 to March 31, 2006), including an automatic renewal for the 2006-2007 year. Under this agreement, Canada agreed to reimburse Quebec $771.76 for each DNA profile completed by the laboratory for a designated offence (under section 487.04 of the Criminal Code), up to a maximum of 11,311 profiles. This amount ($771.76) represents 23.3% of the average eligible cost to process a DNA profile.

On March 31, 2007, the laboratory had fulfilled all its obligations with regard to the second agreement. Since that date, the Quebec government has been trying to negotiate adequate long-term funding to continue its vital contribution to the NDDB.

The federal government and the Quebec government signed an interim cost-sharing agreement in July 2008 to extend the funding for biology casework analysis until a new long-term agreement was reached. The federal government agreed to contribute $2.3 million in both the 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 fiscal years.

The negotiations for the long-term agreement are particularly difficult, because the federal government has so far refused to honour the financial commitment it made in the previous agreement. At the same time, the laboratory's workload increased with the passing of new federal laws (C-13 and C-18) on January 1, 2008. Quebec is expecting to see an increase of more than 1,500 DNA profiles per year, without any additional funding. A new building, new equipment and more resources are necessary to meet the demand this new legislation creates. The issue has been brought to the attention of the federal government again and again.

I come now to the federal-provincial-territorial working group on DNA.

In April 2008, the federal government revived the federal-provincial-territorial working group on DNA to develop a work plan to renew the biology casework analysis agreements with the provinces and territories. A work plan proposal was presented to the deputy ministers of Justice and Public Safety at the federal-provincial-territorial levels in June 2008.

The proposed work plan included the following steps: a short-term work plan (6-12 months) aiming to establish the real cost of DNA analysis as well as the current capacity of the laboratories and to evaluate the increased workload as a result of Bills C-13 and C-18; a long-term work plan (18-24 months) aiming to examine the way international partners use DNA profiles, maximize the efficiency of this technology in the judicial system and its related costs, and evaluate the various cost-sharing and service delivery models.

Quebec objected on the grounds that it had accepted the 2007-2009 interim agreement on the condition that serious negotiations take place in 2008-2009 and that it could not afford to wait a further two years at the same level of funding. Quebec also pointed out the national scope of the program and Ontario and Quebec's essential contributions to the NDDB, that is to say a contribution representing more than 72% of the DNA profiles uploaded to the NDDB Crime Scene Index.

In August 2008, the federal government commissioned Services Conseils Canada to undertake a study of the costs and capacities of the three Canadian laboratories: the Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale, the Centre of Forensic Sciences and the RCMP's Forensic Laboratory Services. This study was supposed to have served as a basis for negotiating a new funding agreement for biological casework analysis. The report was scheduled to be tabled at the end of December 2008.

Despite the fact that Services Conseils Canada finished its work in late January, the laboratory has yet to receive its final report and recommendations. At this time, no other negotiations are underway to reach an agreement on biology casework analysis funding. The federal government entered into biology casework analysis agreements with the other provinces and territories that use the RCMP's Forensic Laboratory Services.

Since the NDDB was established, more than 11,500 matches have been made, thereby helping police solve crimes. The success of the NDDB program completely depends on supplementing and updating the Convicted Offenders Index and the Crime Scene Index.

Quebec, through the laboratory, actively contributes to developing the NDDB. To date, 32% of the DNA profiles unloaded to the Crime Scene Index have come from the laboratory. This contribution could be even more significant if the federal government were to provide funding for the analysis of all DNA profiles requested by the Quebec police in the course of their criminal investigations.

Because of inadequate funding, the laboratory is currently unable to process DNA analyses for the offences set out in Bills C-13 and C-18. As a result, the NDDB's usefulness is seriously hampered.

In order to resolve this situation and optimize the performance of the NDDB, the federal government must assume a greater responsibility for funding this national program by granting the funds necessary to process all forensic DNA profiles for designated offences, taking into account the increased demand created by Bills C-13 and C-18 and the current backlog of DNA profiles in Canadian laboratories.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much.

Mr. Prime, are you prepared to open with a statement as well?

Please go ahead.

9:20 a.m.

Dr. Raymond Prime Director, Centre of Forensic Sciences

Yes, and thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to introduce a colleague with me here. Mr. Jon Newman is the deputy director at the Centre of Forensic Sciences. He's our subject matter expert for today, and I'll ask him to help with some of the questions later.

In Canada, forensic science service is delivered through three relatively large laboratories, as you've heard, which offer similar services with respect to DNA testing. In Ontario, these are provided through the provincial governments, and in the other provinces of the country they are provided by the RCMP. In Ontario, the Centre of Forensic Sciences provides services to law enforcement, crown attorneys, coroners, pathologists, and other official investigators. We do accept cases from defence counsel, and in some circumstances we provide a service to them. We're one of the few government laboratories in North America that does this.

I'd like to emphasize that while we're interconnected, there is a clear distinction between the work we do and that of the national DNA data bank in Ottawa. The operational laboratories in Ontario and Quebec and the RCMP are users of the data bank and integral contributors to the crime scene index. We are essential parts of the partnership, for without us there would be nothing with which to compare the offender profiles. The CFS is a strong supporter of the national data bank, and I would like to offer some compelling examples from our work that demonstrate its value in solving crimes, in exonerating the innocent, and in preventing the people of Canada from becoming victims of serious crime.

Ontario police agencies collect evidence at a crime scene and submit the items to our laboratory. The types of evidence that are submitted to us range from swabs of bodily fluids to articles of furniture or even vehicles. The challenge to the forensic scientist is to find biological samples before we can actually do any DNA testing. This is a labour-intensive process, and this is in fact a rate-limiting step, and it creates the capacity issues you heard about with some frustration from Chief Constable Egan a few weeks ago. When appropriate samples are located, DNA profiles are developed, and these are loaded to the national DNA data bank.

In this brief introduction I'd like to address four questions about the DNA Identification Act and the national data bank. Does it work, could we do more, what are its limitations, and can it be improved?

The key element to the success of the data bank is the number of hits between a convicted offender profile and a crime scene profile that provide investigative leads. We must remember that when a crime scene profile is uploaded, it is automatically searched against all profiles in the data bank, and will perpetually be searched against all these profiles. The data bank can do what is not humanly possible by constantly surveying crime scene and other offender profiles from across the country and ensuring that a case is under investigation independent of what the police are investing with their traditional resources.

The data bank has allowed us to solve a wide range of crimes ranging from break and enters to homicides. Its value is immediately apparent with the recognition that it was possible to go back to evidence that had been retained from unsolved cases from prior decades and solve these cases. One of the earliest such projects undertaken by the centre was to examine unsolved sexual assault cases in Toronto, which brought closure and justice to many victims after periods of up to 20 years.

I'd like to share with you some examples of how the use of the data bank has assisted investigators. In 1991, 63-year-old Muriel Holland was sexually assaulted and killed when someone broke into her apartment. The investigation examined more than 1,000 suspects over a decade using both conventional and DNA techniques. The case was solved early after the introduction of the data bank when a hit occurred to a retroactive sample from a 43-year-old offender. The head of the Peel Regional Police homicide bureau at the time was quoted as saying:

It was quite possible it would never have been solved without the data bank. The data bank is a huge tool to help bring together science and the justice system. I can't overstate the fact that this is a great step forward for us.

The next example demonstrates how the data bank is used to eliminate suspects and focus an investigation. Ten-year-old Holly Jones disappeared from her Toronto neighbourhood. Her remains were discovered a few days later in Lake Ontario. During the ensuing investigation, the people of Toronto were anxious for the safety of other children, and the police had more than 1,600 telephone tips to investigate. A DNA profile was obtained from under the child's fingernails and compared against the convicted offender index; no hit was obtained. The often under-recognized value of the data bank is that at the push of a button, thousands of potential suspects can be eliminated. This can save countless police resources and ensure that innocent people are not unnecessarily detained.

Ultimately, a suspect was identified and charged. Clearly, his identification as a contributor to the DNA profile was the key that led to his decision to plead guilty. This is an example of the impact of the DNA on the court system and one of many cases in which the accused, when faced with DNA evidence, offers a guilty plea. This saves money by eliminating a trial and relieves others of the trauma of the criminal trial process.

In 2008, Bill C-13 and Bill C-18 made changes that allowed the use of the data bank to assist in the investigation of new offences. My next example demonstrates how these changes are impacting the operational laboratories and creating new pressures for us.

York Regional Police seized 49 kilograms of ecstasy and other drug paraphernalia valued at several million dollars. From 11 items that were sent into the lab for testing, four different DNA profiles were uploaded to the crime scene index. The investigation continued and resulted in a guilty plea, with a significant nine-and-a-half-year sentence. Furthermore, one of the DNA profiles hit on a crime scene sample from an unsolved 2005 attempted murder, so that investigation continues. The drug lab was directly linked to organized crime, with international connections.

As a result of the changes brought about by Bill C-13 and Bill C-18, the police can expect to use DNA evidence for additional offences. However, because of these capacity issues I've mentioned, we are unable to provide DNA testing routinely in drug cases, even though it is cost-effective to do so.

Our capacity to provide DNA testing services in support of investigations is limited only by available resources. The demands for DNA testing exceed the resources that are available to do the testing; therefore, we use the DNA Identification Act as a framework for case acceptance. We have estimated that Bill C-13 and Bill C-18 would add approximately 1,500 cases per year to our workload.

With the introduction of the national DNA data bank, a funding formula was developed, which my friend has already discussed with you. This provided a subsidy to Ontario and Quebec of approximately 20% of the average cost of DNA services in exchange for providing data to the data bank, which is operated as a national service. Ontario presently receives about $2.3 million, an amount that has not changed since 2005, despite the fact that demand and caseload continue to increase.

The importance of supporting DNA testing is reflected in the fact that both the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and the International Association of Chiefs of Police have passed resolutions demanding increased resources be committed by government for DNA testing so that police can carry out their duties of protecting life and apprehending criminals.

While much has been written about the value of DNA, the impact on the operational laboratory is not properly appreciated. The workload in the forensic biology units has increased much more than that of other traditional areas of forensic science. For example, there are now cases that can be solved, such as no-suspect sexual assault cases, where DNA evidence becomes critical in identifying the culprit in previously unsolvable crimes.

Before the data bank, crime scenes such as B and Es had little hope of being solved. These are high-volume crimes that are very important to ordinary citizens and contribute significant numbers of data and increase the effectiveness of the data bank. You may be interested to know that when a police officer provides a sample from a B and E to our laboratory, one in three profiles generates a link to an offender or to another crime scene.

In considering the limitations of the data bank, it should be stressed that a DNA hit does not equal guilt. Investigators must evaluate the significance of a hit in the context of the case, recognizing that DNA may have been deposited innocently. An example of that would be a cigarette butt discarded at a crime scene prior to the crime being committed.

Forensic samples, by their nature, often present particular challenges, and the forensic scientist must understand and appropriately express the limitations of the testing. Because the sample may be degraded or putrefied, or it could be a mixture of body fluids from different people, DNA recovered from non-pristine samples may provide only a partial DNA profile. Nevertheless, that partial profile can be searched and can still provide high-quality investigative information. Partial profiles can also exclude suspects.

Operational laboratories in Canada use very strict quality systems that define their criteria for interpretation and reporting of all findings, including those partial DNA profiles.

You've heard that other jurisdictions are including arrestees in their data bank and about the issues surrounding this. You've also heard that Canada's system, which requires judicial intervention to include a convicted offender's profile, is falling short in the numbers of profiles that could be included. None of these are issues for us as scientists to advocate. However, we can state the obvious: the more samples included in the data bank, the more useful it will be. We can reinforce from our experience, though, that there is a need to include DNA from victims in the data bank, and we're also aware of instances where suspects who are regularly sampled and excluded in sexual assault investigations are willing to volunteer samples to be put in a data bank.

The current list of designated offences probably captures most cases in which there is a potential for DNA at a crime scene. At some point, expanding this will result in a point of diminishing returns.

We know there has been consideration of a missing persons index, and it would have some value to police and coroners' investigations if it were implemented on a national basis. An MPI can be wide-ranging, costly and probably of value only in a limited number of cases. However, there would be some value in considering a more limited approach, noting that, again, a technology is capable of extracting nuclear DNA from samples that can be obtained from found unidentified human remains.

In conclusion, the importance of DNA testing was recognized by the federal government and the provinces, and legislation was enacted that created the national DNA data bank. This partnership between good science and good legislation has served forensic science well and has allowed the Centre of Forensic Sciences to advance our mandate of science for justice in support of the administration of justice and public safety programs for the citizens of Ontario.

Thank you.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much.

We certainly appreciate that report.

Does anybody else have any opening remarks to make? Mr. Laberge? No?

Okay. As is our usual practice, we will then go to questions and comments, beginning with the Liberal Party.

Mr. Kania, please.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you.

Thank you all for coming. You may be aware that we've already studied this issue for two separate days. So from my perspective, today is the science day. I'd like to discuss the science part of it--the breakthroughs, what's deficient, and what the changes are--towards two goals. One goal is to try to make sure we exonerate innocent persons with reliability. The other is to actually convict and to assist in the conviction of persons who are actually guilty and to make sure we don't convict anybody who's not actually an offender.

The concern that was left out last time was in regard to false positives. I'd like to discuss that, in particular with reference to the science and the technology, because I believe the ordinary perception on the street would be that once somebody is convicted through the use of DNA evidence, they're guilty. We understand that's not necessarily so, so I'd like you all to discuss that, please. Whoever is most comfortable with the science can begin.

9:35 a.m.

Director, Centre of Forensic Sciences

Dr. Raymond Prime

You must have heard in earlier testimony that when a DNA profile is developed, it's accompanied by a probability statistic that tells you the significance of that finding. The findings that are capable of being developed into full profiles give very impressive statistics and very sound numbers. The reason I mentioned the partial profiles was to bring to your attention that very often in real world cases some interpretation has to be done on the findings, and those findings are accompanied by an accompanying level of confidence in the match that's generated.

The DNA finding alone does not result in a conviction. There has to be other evidence that is accompanying that as well.

I'll turn it over to John and let him comment further on the value of the science.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

I want to follow up on that exact point. I understand what you're saying, that, for example, if a cigarette is left at a scene, it doesn't necessarily mean that person did something. But that's not the focus. The focus is making sure the matches are actually reliable, because obviously there are parameters of evidence that will also be relied upon to determine whether or not somebody is guilty. What I'd like to know is, if the RCMP does their investigation—whatever police force—and they conclude there is a match between what was found at the scene and the sample in the data bank, what guarantee is there that that's 100% accurate, to avoid false convictions and at the same time, if there is a method to exonerate people, to make sure that person is actually innocent?

We were advised mistakes are made. There was an example of a British person who was arrested who could not have done it. He was in a wheelchair, but they were on their way to go get him because they concluded he was the culprit. That's what I'm asking about. I want to know that when we convict somebody we're not going to be facing a situation 20 years down the road when there is suddenly better new technology and people conclude that this range of persons should not actually have been convicted. I'll go to one point here, which is that I read about advances in technology, and the statute we have actually takes into account the fact that there will be advances in technology.

So the other question for me is this. I understand people are always trying to improve, but why do we need advances in technology in this? Is it not reliable already? Can we not assume people can rely upon this now? What are we trying to fix?

9:40 a.m.

Jonathan Newman Deputy Director, Centre of Forensic Sciences

If I can answer that, I'll take the so-called British mistake first. It's interesting to note—and you'll detect from my accent that I have some contacts back in my home country of the U.K.—that it's not referred to and not in fact known as the British mistake in the U.K. It's known in other countries as the British mistake, but my colleagues in the U.K. advised me quite properly that a data bank in that circumstance worked correctly as it should. It was using a technology at the time that was less discriminating between individuals, but notwithstanding that, as Ray has pointed out in his presentation, a hit to the data bank does not equal a conviction, does not equal guilt.

So in that case, a hit occurred to the data bank. The police investigated it. They did not charge the individual. He wasn't taken to trial because, as is included in our own legislation, a hit to the data bank is the first step and it is treated as an investigative aid. The police take the hit, they conduct their investigation of the suspect, they determine the significance of the hit in relation to the investigation, and they decide whether to charge or not.

I think your question is this. If there is a hit to the data bank, how accurate is that in terms of identifying the person responsible to the exclusion of all others? Right?

I think with the technology we have today, if there is a hit to the data bank, there is a theoretical possibility that that individual may not in fact be the source. However, that possibility is extremely, extremely remote, so you have the issue of science and theory and possibilities and practicalities.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Given that there is still a remote possibility, where is the science limited, and what is being worked on to get it to the point where that will not occur? Obviously, if you're telling me it's not perfect and I read that they're still seeking developments, this is something that needs to be taken into account. Where are we? What's next?

9:40 a.m.

Deputy Director, Centre of Forensic Sciences

Jonathan Newman

I think it's important to understand that scientists don't work in a perfect world. Science is all about uncertainty and the unknown and moving forward to reveal information that improves confidence, but scientists don't deal in absolutes. As Ray has pointed out, with any hit to the data bank, there is a statistical analysis that is conducted to try to address that theoretical possibility. So no matter how many advances we make in terms of increasing the numbers of tests we do, there will always be a theoretic possibility that a hit has occurred as a result of a coincidence, but that theoretical possibility, even today, is infinitesimally small.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much.

We will now move over to the Bloc Québécois.

Monsieur Ménard, please.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Since we have very little time, I want to say that my colleague has done a good job of presenting some of our concerns. Since my career was in criminal law, I would say personally that this is one of the most outstanding advances that have happened in the last century in helping the police solve crimes.

Although there are still some minor risks, the degree of certainty is such that these programs must be developed. However, we have some other concerns that I would like to raise with you.

At the moment, do we have the resources required to meet the demand—the demand of investigators and the one created by the new legislation? I notice that we have with us the people who are responsible for analyzing over two-thirds of the DNA samples.

I think you can answer my first question quickly, and then we can move on to other subjects that arise out of your answer.

What is the turnaround time for providing the police with the results of a DNA analysis?

9:45 a.m.

Diane Séguin Deputy Director , Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale

At the moment, we are working on an emergency footing in the laboratories in Quebec. When a case is submitted by the police, whether it is an offence, or the suspect is free, or fleeing, we have to get an answer quickly. In such cases, we put all our energy into dealing with this case quickly, in finding the DNA profiles that could produce matches in the bank.

Since we are on an emergency footing, ordinary cases, that is those that come to the lab and are not classified urgent, because they are part of the normal process, can be put on hold for a year, because we are working on an emergency footing all the time.

We could provide results to the police on urgent cases within two weeks. At the moment, we get about 5,000 cases a year in Quebec, and we have the capacity to process 3,000 of them. So we are constantly working on an emergency footing. We can deal with urgent requests, but, in the end, all the requests are urgent, because even a sexual assault case that is not processed for a year could help the police solve other crimes.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you. I too am working on an emergency footing, because my time is so short, but I would like to know something else. At the outset, we were told that urgent cases make up about 1% of the total. Is that about right?

9:45 a.m.

Deputy Director , Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale

Diane Séguin

Yes, that is about it.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

So the turnaround time for 99% of the cases is over a year.

9:45 a.m.

Deputy Director , Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

And you are not able to catch up, if I understand correctly.

9:45 a.m.

Deputy Director , Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale

Diane Séguin

That is correct.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

So the turnaround times will therefore continue to increase, unless you are given more resources.

9:45 a.m.

Deputy Director , Laboratoire de sciences judiciaires et de médecine légale

Diane Séguin

Because of the new acts that have come into effect.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Is the same thing true for you, Mr. Prime?

9:45 a.m.

Director, Centre of Forensic Sciences

Dr. Raymond Prime

In our laboratory, we have been putting a lot of emphasis on turnaround time over the last two years, because we've had a report from the Auditor General of Ontario that has told us to do that. We have set up practices so that we can turn around some of the easier cases, such as break-and-enter cases, within 30 days. We have several months for some of our non-urgent cases. We're targeting to get those out in three months.

We're just starting to do this. As I said, we've changed our processes, so we don't have any measurements on that yet. We are improving our turnaround times, but we do have a system similar to the one you heard about in Quebec for urgent cases.

The other thing we are doing, though, is we are simply telling police officers that we won't accept certain kinds of cases. We can't continue to have cases come in that we know are going to cause us these kinds of delays. So we have taken the step of saying that we won't take any additional work as a result of Bill C-13 and Bill C-18, unless it meets some very narrow criteria relating to issues of public safety. So we have very significantly curtailed the work we do.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Unless I am mistaken, the turnaround times may be shorter, but that is because you've decided to eliminate some of the cases.