Evidence of meeting #36 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prisons.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Graham Stewart  Former Executive Director of the John Howard Society of Canada, As an Individual
Craig Jones  Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I would like to bring this meeting to order. This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, meeting 36. It is a study of federal corrections, focusing on the mental health and addiction aspects of that system.

We would like to welcome this morning, from the John Howard Society of Canada, Mr. Craig Jones, the executive director, and the former executive director of the John Howard Society, Mr. Graham Stewart. Welcome, gentlemen.

The usual practice at this committee is to allow each of you an opening statement of approximately ten minutes, and then we'll move to discussion time with questions and comments. We look forward to your presentation.

Who would like to go first? Mr. Stewart. Go ahead, sir.

11:10 a.m.

Graham Stewart Former Executive Director of the John Howard Society of Canada, As an Individual

Good morning.

I'm here today as a co-author of A Flawed Compass: A Human Rights Analysis of the Roadmap to Strengthening Public Safety. A Flawed Compass is the work of Michael Jackson, professor of law at the University of British Columbia, and me alone.

Having retired over two years ago from the John Howard Society of Canada, I am not a representative of, nor do I speak for, the John Howard Society of Canada. Craig Jones has that responsibility.

Leading up to the adoption of the CCRA in 1992, the office of the Solicitor General produced nine important papers that explored issues facing Canadian prison law, particularly in the context of the new charter. Those papers formed the substance of eight years of active public consultation. It is worth noting that the correctional law review analysis was based on a human rights perspective.

In 2007, the Minister of Public Safety created a panel to advise the minister on various important issues facing the Correctional Service. Chaired by Rob Sampson, the panel's report, along with all its recommendations, was accepted immediately by the government, without public consultation. It is now the transformative agenda for CSC, the Correctional Service of Canada.

I should begin by stating that Michael Jackson and I agree with the recommendations of the Sampson report with respect to mental health. They largely endorse the mental health strategy developed by CSC in 2004, which we also support. The important observation, however, is that mental health services are very much part of, and are influenced by, the overall correctional setting. Other correctional policies and practices can completely undermine the best plans for mental health and the noblest intentions of staff. In that respect, many of the panel's recommendations for mental health are severely compromised by other recommendations. In part, the lack of coherence has occurred because the approach of the panel completely ignored human rights.

Why are human rights essential as the foundation of correctional policy? One reason is that the purpose of human rights is to protect all citizens from abuse by the state. A prison system that is not respectful of human rights is one that necessarily tolerates abuse. We know of no evidence that abusive, arbitrary, or unfair treatment improves a prisoner's prospects for success after release. Abuse teaches that might is right, the very values that often lead to criminal acts in the first place. Effective corrections cannot occur outside a human rights framework.

The road map ignored the report the CSC commissioned in 1997 by Max Yalden, former chief commissioner of the Canadian Human Rights Commission. In doing so, it also ignored his caution. He said:

It is particularly important to recognize the fundamental nature of Canada's commitments in light of the fact that some members of Canadian society, including some CSC employees, do not necessarily share the values underlying the Service's human rights framework. In that context, it is essential to make it clear that the principles and provisions incorporated in the CCRA derive from universal human rights standards supported by all the advanced democracies with which Canada compares itself, that the Service holds itself accountable to those standards, and that it is actively committed to making them work in federal correctional institutions.

Yet this is the response given in a CFRB interview by Minister Van Loan to questions about the criticism contained in A Flawed Compass:

Prisoners have the full protection of the Charter of Rights. They have the Office of the Correctional Investigator to look into complaints. That's not the issue here. The issue is, how do we protect the rights of the people in the community, Canadians, to be safe from the threat of criminals?

There is no totalitarian regime in the world that does not espouse human rights, so long as they do not threaten whatever they define as public safety.

Our system invests tremendous resources in preserving the right to be free from crime through police, prosecution, courts, imprisonment, supervision, and so on, all without cost to the individual. But there is virtually no publicly supported mechanisms that help us preserve our right to be free from abuse by the state.

In real terms, the charter offers no significant protections in the face of a government that chooses to disregard human rights when it suits them. We need to know that our government understands human rights. We need to know that our leaders believe in human rights. We need to know that they appreciate that defence of our human rights is at the very core of democracy and, as such, it is their fundamental obligation to safeguard them, both in law and in practice. A road map for the future of corrections in Canada and its treatment of prisoners that cannot devote a single footnote to human rights, and a Minister of Public Safety who tells us that human rights are incompatible with public safety, is not a good start.

A human rights analysis of corrections and the treatment of the mentally ill within correctional settings leads to many fundamental questions that might guide the work of this committee. Some of those questions would include the following.

Can a system that is respectful of human rights and the decent treatment of those in its care place the severely mentally ill in segregation for long periods of time without even providing a thorough psychological assessment or treatment activity?

And could it refuse to implement the minimal safeguards of independent adjudication for those placed in administrative segregation or pretend that the charter and the correctional investigator could protect their human rights?

Would we tolerate a system where we pretend that the mentally ill have ready access to effective grievance and redress systems, particularly where their literacy and mental condition often make such grievances impossible to prepare?

Could a system that is respectful of human rights accept that while the Sampson panel is pending its recommendations to remove some of the residual rights for those in segregation, a 19-year-old mentally ill girl in segregation strangles herself to death in front of guards, who have instructions not to intervene unless she stops breathing?

Can we accept a correctional system that acknowledges that most of their population has serious mental health and/or addiction issues, and yet spends only 2% of revenue on programs?

Given that addictions in prisons consume most of the population and commonly co-exist with mental illness, can we accept that none of the Sampson panel recommendations relating to drugs addressed prevention, harm reduction, or treatment, while 13 recommendations would toughen enforcement, often by further restricting visits? Would we accept recommendations that see family and community support only as security problems, without any acknowledgement that both the prisoner and the family are entitled to visit and are dependent on those visits to maintain their crucial relationships?

Would a human rights approach allow for more correctional officers than nursing staff on psychiatric ranges? In contrast are the many community forensic facilities where there are no correctional staff on the ranges at all. Could we accept correctional treatment facilities that have a fraction of the treatment staff-to-patient ratios that community forensic facilities have? Could we accept huge waiting lists for programs while the Sampson panel asserts that we need to deprive people of their rights in order to motivate them to take these programs?

Could we endorse recommendations to abolish statutory release, the only gradual release option that is sometimes available to the mentally ill and the otherwise disadvantaged, while knowing that thousands would be released to the community without support, supervision, resource, or follow-up treatment? Could we tolerate a system that keeps seriously ill or disadvantaged people in prison as long as possible, all the while telling them and the public that they can earn parole?

Would we accept broad-ranging, indeed dramatic, changes to corrections without evidence of effectiveness, and in the face of contrary evidence posted on the ministry's own website?

Would we tolerate the removal from the CCRA of the long-held principle of least restrictive measure for the use of criminal sanctions in administration of prisons?

Would we accept vague promises for improvements to our prisons, when sentencing and gradual release policies will inevitably strangle the capacity of the system to deliver on them through huge population increases, inadequate space, and shortage of adequately trained staff?

Would we accept the recommendations that CSC build super-prisons, a complex of prisons within prisons, containing all levels of security and special populations, without justifying carefully how it is possible to actually deliver diverse environments and programs in such a monolithic structure?

If we were concerned about the decent and effective treatment of people in our institutions, would we turn over the planning for the future of federal corrections to a panel of non-experts chaired by an obviously politically partisan chair, with an all-embracing mandate, minimal resources, an impossible 50-day timeframe, and no provision for public consultation on their recommendations? Would we do that with defence, health, or policing?

Would we accept a correctional transformation agenda that is based on a report that never mentions human rights or acknowledges the necessity for human rights to be at the foundation of effective corrections?

We believe strongly that the important work of this committee will fail if it does not reflect in its principles, decisions, and recommendations an unequivocal endorsement of human rights as the foundation for effective corrections and for the treatment of the mentally ill in prisons.

Thank you for your attention.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you.

Mr. Jones, please.

11:20 a.m.

Craig Jones Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, committee members.

I address my remarks today to two audiences: first to you, the members of this special committee; and second, to the historical record.

Let me say that I appreciate the opportunity to bring before this committee the views of the John Howard Society of Canada. You will know that we are a non-profit charitable society governed by volunteers committed to effective, just, and humane responses to the causes and consequences of crime.

Our 65 front-line offices deliver evidence-based programs and services intended to ensure the safe and effective reintegration of prisoners at the end of their sentences. We also deliver numerous services to young persons to divert them from the criminal justice machinery.

We subscribe to the view that crime is a community issue and that an intelligent response ought to involve the community. So thank you, committee members, on behalf of our front line, our volunteers, and our boards of directors for the chance to bring our message to you.

My second audience is the future. I suffer no illusions that I will be able to alter the course of the government’s crime agenda, whose legislative components contradict evidence, logic, effectiveness, history, and humanity. The government has repeatedly signalled that its crime agenda will not be influenced by evidence of what does and does not actually reduce crime and create safer communities. So if we can’t persuade on the evidence of effectiveness, justice, or humanity, we will speak to future historians, criminologists, and parliamentarians to show them that we were dissenting voices when the government’s crime agenda was being deliberated.

A little context is in order. Prisons are dumping grounds for Canada’s mentally ill. It was not supposed to be this way when, in the 1970s and 1980s, the provinces closed their mental hospitals and transferred care to the communities. As is now understood, the resources for community-based care never appeared, and as increasing numbers of people went off their meds or fell through the cracks created by cutbacks to provincial social services, a larger number of them have been criminalized and ended up in federal custody. The federal prison system is the only component of the state apparatus that cannot say “Sorry, we’re full”, so today we face a crisis of mental illness and substance abuse in our federal prisons.

Simultaneously, governments have been pursuing a utopian experiment in social engineering called “drug prohibition”. This policy transforms a public health issue—that is, drug abuse and addiction—into a criminal justice matter and has the effect of filling prisons with people who need medical attention, psychiatric care, and substance abuse treatment.

The government has recommitted to this madness with the national anti-drug strategy. Ignoring the experience and evidence from the United States, the national anti-drug strategy adds, for the first time, mandatory sentences for drug crimes. The historical experience of the United States illustrates that “getting tough” on drug offenders simply stuffs prisons and jails with low-level users, many of whom show clear evidence of mental illness that, in most cases, preceded the onset of their substance abuse problems.

Drug prohibition has had other consequences too. It has produced a hardened cohort of violent young men schooled in ruthless gang violence over drug profits, and this is what has given rise to CSC’s changing offender population.

These young men are not necessarily mentally ill—though many of them do suffer the effects of prolonged drug abuse—but they create legitimate management problems for Correctional Service Canada. And prisons have become, in the words of one aboriginal gang member, “gladiator schools” for young men as they cycle in and out of the criminal justice system.

So our federal prisons have become gladiator schools where we train young men in the art of extreme violence or warehouse mentally ill people. All of this was foreseeable by anyone who cared to examine the historical experience of alcohol prohibition, but since we refuse to learn from history we are condemned to repeat it.

That brings us to the present. I call on the federal government to engage the Mental Health Commission of Canada in the development of a national strategy that would achieve collaboration and coordination among federal-provincial-territorial criminal justice, correctional, and mental health systems to, one, promote the seamless and cost-effective delivery of services to offenders with identifiable mental disorders; and two, to initiate innovative community-based service delivery models for these offenders and focus resources in particular on those mentally disordered offenders with co-occurring substance abuse problems who are living in disadvantaged social circumstances, a population that poses the greatest challenges for effective service delivery and social reintegration.

A national strategy to address mental health in the correctional system must grapple with the reality that the great majority of persons in the correctional system suffer from concurrent disorders. They have a mental health condition as well as a substance abuse disorder, which means that both conditions have to be treated simultaneously.

If the government achieves its objectives, estimates are that the current population will grow by as many as 3,000 new beds for men, and as many as 300 for women. These are conservative estimates, because so far no one has made public the anticipated costs and consequences of the crime agenda. But we can make some general projections based on the American experience.

Number one, crowding increases tension among inmates. Among the first noticeable effects of crowding is elevated blood pressure, both systolic and diastolic. Elevated blood pressure is a gateway to metabolic syndromes, including diabetes and heart disease. So the first obvious effect will be to create the conditions for chronic health conditions downstream.

The second immediate effect is that crowding elevates the incidence of viral and bacterial transmission between inmates, so crowded prisons are sicker prisons. Crowded prisons are also less habitable environments, because malodorous air pollutants heighten negative psychological effects and cause behavioural disturbances and depressive symptoms.

Currently, the federal system is running at about 10% double bunking. No one, to my knowledge, has assessed the population health burden of the crime bills once they come into force, but it would be prudent to assume that our prisons, which are already incubators of HIV and hepatitis C, will begin to breed numerous other infectious diseases as they fill up.

To my knowledge, no one has assessed the consequences of this elevated level of infectious conditions for labour requirements across the federal system. People have to work in these places too.

Number two, tension increases stress levels among inmates and staff. As tension increases, staff feel less safe and limit their personal contact with inmates. They adopt a more cautious posture and keep a greater distance from inmates on the ranges. This contributes to increased tension, because it creates a self-escalating cycle as staff and inmates perceive elevated anxiety in each other’s non-verbal behaviour. Disputes that might have been resolved with conversation take on a combative quality, and staff—in order to protect themselves—wear heavier apparel, such as stab-resistant vests.

Behaviour symptomatic of mental illness is sometimes treated in prison as a disciplinary rather than medical problem. This cycle rapidly degrades the quality of work for staff and guards, which is an outcome that this committee should examine closely, because among other problems, it will eventually drive good correctional officers out of the profession. As CSC will admit, they already have problems attracting and retaining staff. Rapid growth in the rate of incarceration can only exacerbate this problem.

Number three, as stress levels rise, we can expect to see more incidents of self-harm and suicide attempts. As Alison Liebling has written, prisoner suicide is not exclusively or predominantly a psychiatric problem. There are multiple psychological pathways to suicide in prison, one of which is the social isolation that accompanies the management of a rapidly growing population. Furthermore, there are at least three identifiably different kinds of prison suicides in the literature: life-sentence prisoners, the psychiatrically ill, and the poor copers. These latter are generally younger and non-violent, which is exactly the population that will be caught up in this new binge.

Liebling claims that women far outnumber men in terms of incidence of self-injury per head of population, up to as many as 1.5 incidents per week per woman, and that 20 or 30 incidents of cutting during one sentence is not unusual among women prisoners.

Fourth, elevated stress correlates with population management problems. As populations become harder to manage and control, staff turn to segregation and other forms of offender control. Invariably, these fall disproportionately on those least able to cope with the pace of change and who act out of desperation and frustration. Again symptoms of mental disorder manifest as behavioural misconduct, which are disruptive to the good order of the institution, and mentally ill persons find themselves singled out for special, usually harsher treatment, but also for the hostile attention of other inmates.

So crowding turns into elevated stress, which turns into heightened tension, which manifests as violence.

I'm going to conclude now.

If the government is committed to growing Canada’s rate of incarceration, it will impose great costs on the correctional system in the short term--costs that will be felt in the safe management of the population, in staff and inmate stress levels, and in the overall incidence of violence. The service will have to fill many vacancies in its therapeutic complement—social workers, psychologists, and substance abuse specialists—if it wants to prevent the worst effects of overcrowding upon inmates with concurrent disorders. As the correctional investigator told you, “...many institutions are currently not staffed, funded or equipped to deal adequately with the needs of mentally disordered offenders…. Interdisciplinary mental health teams are supposed to be on-site, but in many facilities these teams exist in name only.”

The last point is that we could be heading into a very difficult time for the service. It is urgent that the government grow the service’s capacity to address these issues with the same alacrity as it seeks to grow the rate of incarceration.

Thank you for your time and attention to this urgent matter.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you.

We'll move immediately to questions and comments, beginning with the official opposition.

Mr. Holland, please. You'll have seven minutes.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for appearing before our committee today. This is very sobering testimony and I think quite a disturbing picture that's painted of the direction we're currently headed in with this government's policy on crime.

Let me start, Mr. Jones, with a comment you made at the beginning of your statement. You stated that the “government's crime agenda...contradict[s] evidence, logic, effectiveness, justice and humanity”. It would be an understatement to say that this is a strong statement. Could you elaborate specifically on how you feel this is so?

11:35 a.m.

Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

Craig Jones

We have a grand social experiment on incarceration and the consequences for crime to our south, in the United States of America. You will know that the United States is now the largest incarcerator in the world; that one out of every four persons in the entire world—that is, on the planet—who are in prison is in a prison in the United States. Approximately 1% of the American population is under some form of judicial supervision. It has been a catastrophically expensive exercise, but it has not produced the reduction in crime rates that you would expect for that rate of incarceration.

So the evidence from the United States and the evidence from the U.K. is that growing the rate of incarceration does not reduce the rate of crime. In fact, there is emerging evidence, again coming from the United States and the U.K., that growing the rate of incarceration may actually increase the rate of crime because of what's called “prisonization”, or the experience of incarceration and the difficulty thereafter of successful reintegration. There is a large body of evidence, and I'm happy to supply it to you—some of it is referenced in this paper—that simply growing the rate of incarceration does not reduce crime.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

We've seen, in some of the jurisdictions you've mentioned—for example, in the United States, and in California specifically, where the governor now has said that their system is literally collapsing under its own weight; where recently they had to release thousands of prisoners into the streets because they simply had no more room for them, in a jurisdiction that has a rate of recidivism that's now 70%, which is staggering.... Seven out of every ten prisoners are reoffending, while the comparable rate is 36% in Canada.

Is it your assertion, then, that the direction or the trajectory we're following is the same one the Americans began following in the early 1980s? Are we walking that same road, if you will?

11:35 a.m.

Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

Craig Jones

If the pattern holds—

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

There is a point of order. Let's stop for a minute.

Mr. MacKenzie.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

The problem with the whole issue here today is that we are not studying the philosophy of Mr. Jones and the John Howard Society; we want to look at the mental health situation and addictions in our prisons.

I understand Mr. Holland's questioning, and I understand Mr. Jones' purpose here, but what we really want to do is study the mental health issues in the corrections system, and the addictions.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

All right. I made that point at the beginning, and we should continue to focus.

Go ahead, Mr. Holland.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

I will relate this, if you can give me the time back on the clock.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

You can have 30 seconds.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

It is extremely important to understand that when 80%, which is what Mr. Head told us, of individuals who are in prison are facing addiction issues, I think—and Mr. Jones can correct me if I'm wrong here—the way we are dealing with mental health issues and addiction issues is very much at the heart of this matter, and that the Americans tried a particular approach that is now being applied here in Canada.

My question is, is that approach that was tried in the United States, in your opinion, the trajectory we are following now?

I can perhaps ask that same question to Mr. Stewart as well. Are we walking the same road as the Americans walked on this issue, and can we expect the same kind of disastrous results?

11:40 a.m.

Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

Craig Jones

I think we will do the decaffeinated version of the American experience; I don't think we'll go for hpyerincarceration. But the bottom line is that if we are going to grow the rate of incarceration in Canada, we're going to grow the incidence and the severity of mental illness problems in the correctional system, and if the government's agenda is to grow the rate of incarceration, then the government has to take hold of the fact that we are also growing these other problems as well.

11:40 a.m.

Former Executive Director of the John Howard Society of Canada, As an Individual

Graham Stewart

One of the things that are very important is that we can't look at mental health and mental health services in prisons as though they are distinct from the prison they are in or distinct from the other policies that are reflected in our operation of corrections.

The problems that were created in the United States were created essentially through two measures. One was harsh mandatory minimum sentencing, and the other was reductions in the mechanisms of release. It has led increasingly to harsher and harsher penalties. Once one buys the idea that mandatory minimums will stop crime, then crime simply becomes the justification for more of it. And so we ended up, by using those two mechanisms, with a system in the United States that no one predicted, that no one thought was possible.

In 1974 Canada had an incarceration rate of 89 per 100,000. The United States had an incarceration rate of 159 per 100,000. Thirty years later, our incarceration rate had increased from 89 to 109; the American incarceration rate went to 750. It is an astonishing difference.

But the relationship here is that when you have that kind of growth, you turn your gymnasiums into dormitories, so you have eliminated recreation. When you have that kind of growth, you don't have rooms to meet demand. You don't have staff who can provide programs and mental health services.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

I have another question that logically stems from this. No doubt there were huge social and financial costs to doing that, but comparing crime rates in Canada, which has kept a relatively stable incarceration rate, with those in the United States and the United Kingdom, what impact did it have on actually making communities safer? In other words, with all of those billions of dollars of spending on prisons and all of the social problems that were wrought by doing it, was it the experience that it didn't make the community safer in that same period of time, that in fact the United States became more dangerous?

11:40 a.m.

Former Executive Director of the John Howard Society of Canada, As an Individual

Graham Stewart

Canada's property crime rate and the American property crime rate are about the same and always have been. The violent crime rate in the United States, especially involving guns, is about three times the rate in Canada. Through the 30 years I was talking about, trends in crime between Canada and the United States were identical—trends, not levels. We seem to have achieved without incarceration exactly the same benefits as the Americans think they achieved through massive incarceration. In that respect, I think Canada looks pretty smart comparatively. We got the same benefit without relying on incarceration.

In states that now spend more on their prisons than—

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Maybe we'll save some of these comments for a little later, because we are limited by time.

Monsieur Ménard, please.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you very much for coming here.

Unfortunately, we hear people say that we should have adopted the same approach as the United States. I have the exact opposite opinion. I see that your convictions are based on objective knowledge that we can all verify.

However, in terms of this current study on mental health in prisons, I would like to go further. Quebec established the Institut Philippe-Pinel, which is named after the French doctor who was the first to say that the mentally ill should be segregated and treated with compassion. To my way of thinking, this institute has not expanded enough and cannot take in the most difficult cases, that is patients who have committed murder or other extremely violent crimes.

Can you explain to us why there are not more institutions in Canada equipped to take in the mentally ill who exhibit criminal behaviour, and who have presented and continue to present a significant danger to public safety?

11:45 a.m.

Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

Craig Jones

Thank you for that question. I would like to respond to that.

The commissioner of corrections was before this panel some time ago—I believe it's in my submission—and he made a statement to you that I think shines some light on this. He was here on May 29, 2006, and he told you, and I'm quoting from his testimony:About 80% of our offenders have substance abuse problems, either alcohol and/or drugs.... About 12% have a current mental health diagnosis and the challenges that go with that.

That is an understanding that is essentially archaic in our larger, newer understanding of how mental health and substance abuse disorders co-occur. I'm glad you asked this question because it gives me an opportunity to address this point directly, which is that up until very recently it was broadly understood at a popular level of understanding that substance abuse disorders and mental health disorders were essentially separate and could be treated separately, and furthermore, that some substance abuse disorders were failures of personal character and therefore those persons could be in some way stigmatized for bad personal conduct.

Today we understand this situation quite differently. Today the current medicine, the current science, tells us that substance abuse disorders usually occur after the onset of a mental health illness, a mental illness of some kind, often by as much as 10 years. So if we filter the commissioner's understanding through what we know about the co-occurrence of substance abuse and mental health, we can say reasonably that roughly 80% of the current prison population suffers from a concurrent disorder.

So to come directly to your question of why, it's because our understanding of mental illness and substance abuse has come along very slowly. That's why I urge you to bring the Mental Health Commission of Canada into this, because they are bringing forth the best evidence, the best science, and as you move forward in your deliberations you will learn that it's imperative to treat persons with mental illness and substance abuse disorders in an integrated treatment model. My concern is that as we grow the rate of incarceration—I presume the government is serious that it wants to grow the rate of incarceration—we need the resources to address these treatment problems, because currently CSC is unable to fill these positions, to staff these therapeutic positions. So that's the concern I leave before you.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Two minutes.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

In your opinion, are the types of penitentiaries that we have conducive to treating the mentally ill and other individuals whose dangerous behaviour is symptomatic of their mental illness?

You call for radical changes to the way in which facilities house the mentally ill are built. What kind of qualifications would be required of persons called upon to protect the public from persons suffering from a mental illness?

11:50 a.m.

Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

Craig Jones

As I tour the country, I get to talk to prison psychiatrists and social workers and various other kinds of experts on the front line, and I have a number of contacts in CSC who tell me—and I have every reason to believe them—that CSC is capable of delivering state-of-the-art mental health and substance abuse treatment. It's simply a matter that they cannot fill the positions.

To your first question, prison is not an ideal place to treat mental illness. Let me put that in as understated a manner as I can. As we grow the rate of incarceration, it is likely to become even less hospitable to mental health treatment.

One of the things we're going to see as the population grows is that correctional officers, who engage with inmates on a regular basis, are going to become more standoffish, more cautious, right? It's that kind of personal contact, that modelling of pro-social behaviour, that does good things for people with mental illness and substance abuse problems. There will be less of that as crowding takes hold.