Public Safety Committee on Nov. 5th, 2009

[Lisa Allgaier, Director General, Aboriginal Initiatives Directorate, Correctional Service Canada]

Thank you.

I'm Lisa Allgaier, the director general for aboriginal initiatives. I've been in the position since November 2002. It was my first position with the federal government. Prior to that, I worked for the Province of B.C. as the director for aboriginal health.

I've worked in, with, and for the aboriginal community for over 20 years now, all my working career.

I'm first nations. My family is from northern Manitoba, from the Norway House and Cross Lake first nation communities, and I grew up mostly in British Columbia.

I'm happy to be here today. Thank you for inviting me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

As is the usual practice, we'll begin with the Liberal Party, the official opposition, for seven minutes, please.

Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing before the committee today. I appreciate your time.

Mr. Sapers, the correctional investigator, has long criticized Correctional Service of Canada for refusing to give the deputy commissioner for women full and direct authority for all matters affecting female prisoners, given that it is widely felt that by empowering the deputy commissioner for women, they would be much more able to serve the interests of female inmates. In fact, the correctional investigator has gone so far as to say that if the recommendations of the Arbour commission had been implemented, it's quite possible that the tragedy of Ashley Smith wouldn't have happened.

Why have those recommendations not been heeded, and why have Mr. Sapers' concerns not been recognized and implemented?

I'll go to Mr. Hyppolite first.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

Mr. Chair, we are aware of the recommendation of the correctional investigator with respect to giving line authority to the deputy commissioner for aboriginal women. This question has been examined on several occasions and it is our view that the functional role played by the deputy commissioner for women at the national level is the right and effective way.

The deputy commissioners of our five regions have direct accountability and responsibility for providing correctional programs and services to women offenders. The functional role that we have is a very strong one, in charge of the establishment of policy. We have recently—and I would pass this over to Madame Elizabeth Van Allen—established a clear definition of roles and responsibilities between the deputy commissioner and the deputy commissioner for women. We remain convinced that the right way to go is not to give direct responsibility of line authority to this position but to work collaboratively with all the partners in the regions to make sure that effective corrections are delivered.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Okay. You're disagreeing, then, with the concerns raised by Mr. Sapers.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

Yes.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Let me then ask Ms. Van Allen, if I could.

Concerning the recommendations of the Arbour inquiry as they pertain to your position specifically, do you feel that at this point, effectively, those recommendations have been implemented, or does your position still remain lacking with respect to Madame Arbour's comments?

[D/Commr Elizabeth Van Allen]

With respect to the deputy commissioner for women position, the governance structure decided on by the CSC is the right one. We've had many discussions as an executive committee about this structure and have landed where we landed.

After I came into the position in December of 2008, we constructed a roles and responsibilities document. We have shared that document broadly across the organization. I have taken a strong leadership role in terms of my functional leadership to work with the regions in strengthening those relationships with RDCs. And as you know, the regional deputy commissioners have assistant deputy commissioners who are actually responsible for the day-to-day management of the institutions.

I have forged strong relationships with that group. I meet four times a year with this group, who are responsible for the women's institutions, along with the women wardens. We come together four times a year to discuss areas of mutual interest and concern. Additionally, I have monthly meetings via conference call with this same group. So in terms of working together, we have strong working relationships and I think it works well.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Right now we know, according to Don Head, that more than a quarter of female inmates face serious mental health issues. That figure is put higher by others, but a minimum of a quarter face serious mental health issues.

We know that the number of female aboriginal inmates is abhorrent, particularly relative to the non-aboriginal female inmate population--that it is over 32%. We know that addiction issues among female inmates in our prison facilities is above 75%. These are pretty terrible numbers.

I know you've referenced a couple of programs, but the reality is that even more inmates are going to be coming in. The strain on our prison system is going to be that much greater, and the resources you have been given are not that much greater. I would argue they are not even great enough to keep the status quo with all the new people coming forward.

How do you reconcile those numbers with what you're saying in terms of seeing improvements? What I see is the situation getting worse. That's my concern.

[D/Commr Elizabeth Van Allen]

Certainly the service is facing a number of challenges, as you have mentioned. We do see an increase in the number of women coming into our system with mental health issues. There is no question about that. Certainly it's no different for our aboriginal women, and yes, the prevalence of mental health issues for our aboriginal women is higher than for our non-aboriginal women.

But as I indicated, we have a number of programs and interventions. I just mentioned two, but we have an entire suite of programs with respect to aboriginals in general. We have elders, we have Pathway units, and we have programs that are culturally designed to address the needs of our aboriginal offenders.

With respect to mental health, we have an integrated mental health strategy, which we are in the process of implementing.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Sorry to interrupt, but the problem is that a correctional investigator is telling us that we're really using our prisons as hospitals and we're failing miserably at that, and the programs and services and training that we have today aren't working. And the problem is that we're seeing an expanding population, as you've just said, and yet we're not really seeing much in terms of corresponding increases in budget.

We have maybe a little bit of an increase in budget, but wouldn't you agree that is only going to at best keep the status quo? When you have an expanding population and a growing problem and you're getting modest budget increases to face that problem, when you're already facing concerns brought forward by the correctional investigator, who is saying we're simply failing to deal with these mental health issues, aren't the resources we're applying to this not really keeping our heads above water in terms of maintaining the status quo?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We're out of time, but please give a brief response.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

Mr. Chair, in its 2008 budget Correctional Service Canada received $29.1 million to improve mental health. We have a comprehensive mental health strategy for the institutions, and we also have a community mental health strategy.

When aboriginal women arrive at the intake assessment, obviously they are assessed for their needs. We have five regional treatment centres that address mental health issues in relation to all offenders, including aboriginal, and to some extent aboriginal women as well.

So the mental health strategy has about six components. The first, when you arrive, is our computerized assessment screening, which we have just implemented. The second is the provision of mental health services for immediate needs, and you have intermediate needs, which is that the offenders who are suffering from mental health issues that are not acute enough to have them placed in a psychiatric facility get put in supportive units.

As well, we have some funding at this point where there's a sunset clause to 2010 when the budget review will be finished, and Correctional Service is intending to use breach funding until we can secure more permanent funding. Offenders who have acute mental health issues are placed in five psychiatric facilities. In addition, we have a series of contracts with mental health professionals in the community that also are designed to provide services. Last, we also make sure we have a training component to it, whereby staff can also interact culturally appropriately and professionally with offenders suffering from acute mental illness.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much. We went way over time there.

Monsieur Ménard, please.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In 1996, Judge Arbour submitted her report following a commission of inquiry into the events that had taken place at Kingston Prison for Women. She made 14 recommendations. Have they all been implemented?

[D/Commr Elizabeth Van Allen]

As you know, there were quite a number of recommendations. Although CSC did not accept all of them, the vast majority were supported, and most of them have been implemented.

The nature of some of the recommendations are such that the work will continue to be ongoing. For example, that I explore ways with provinces and territories for cooperation in terms of things like common program delivery or joint staff training and exchange of services agreements is something we'll continue to work on.

We did a ten-year status report that is available—and I could provide it to the group—that clearly outlines every recommendation by number and what progress has been made on that to date, if you'd like a more comprehensive answer.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Later, in 2003, the Canadian Human Rights Commission prepared a report entitled "Protecting Their Rights", in which it conducted a systemic review of human rights in correctional services for women serving federal sentences. The report set out three guiding principles and even made 19 recommendations.

Could you tell us which of those recommendations have been accepted and implemented, and which have been rejected?

[D/Commr Elizabeth Van Allen]

CSC accepted most of the recommendations put forth by the CHRC, the Human Rights Commission. We report annually to them on the progress we've made with respect to each recommendation. I've met with CHRC twice in about the last six months.

Some recommendations, not very many, are not fully implemented yet. Work is ongoing to address the three areas that remain.

One important recommendation that's not fully implemented came out of that report, and I would comment on it--the development of the initial security classification scale for women. Part of the delay is that a soundly supported research tool requires that certain numbers of cases be considered, and the small number of women offenders we have coming into our institution necessarily means it will take longer to collect the data and test the prototype. So the work is ongoing with respect to that one.

None of the outstanding recommendations are linked to mental health or addictions. However, in response to certain findings, we continue to make efforts to strengthen the use of section 84 agreements for the supervision of aboriginal women offenders within aboriginal communities. Moreover, certain recommendations that have been enacted, such as the Okimaw Ohci Healing Lodge in Maple Creek, Saskatchewan, have had positive impacts on these subgroups. The ten-year status report that I mentioned has a recommendation-by-recommendation breakdown we can provide to you, should you wish to have more detail with respect to each recommendation.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Now I'd like to hear you talk about Joliette. There was a lot of publicity when Joliette Institution was built. There were a number of articles on the subject, but I must say that, at the time, greater importance was attached to the architectural quality of the prison and to its living quarters. Joliette Institution was established some time ago, and I imagine programs have been established there.

Has this proven to be a positive experience for the women who have been there? And if it is a positive influence, can any lessons be drawn from it as well for the treatment of men?

[D/Commr Elizabeth Van Allen]

To note some of the history around women's corrections, there was of course a call for closure of the Prison for Women for many years before it finally took place and we developed the five regional women's institutions. As with anything, there are always some hiccups and challenges along the way when we institute something new. For example, the original vision didn't include a secure area within the institution to manage some of the more challenging inmates who required more structure and supervision; that was something that came later.

But in the end, we have built institutions that are based on the five overarching principles of the task force report, Creating Choices, those being empowerment, meaningful and responsible choices, respect and dignity, supportive environment, and shared responsibility. I believe that this was the intent with the institutions, and that's how they're built. It's a communal living style: they live in houses together; they have to learn to get along and support each other. I think for the most part it's a good environment, and it works for women.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

My question is a little simpler than that. In a few words, has Joliette been a positive experience? If not, has it not realized the hopes that were placed in it?

[D/Commr Elizabeth Van Allen]

I think the opening of the five regional institutions has been a positive experience.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Because you know it had to be defended: in one segment of public opinion, it was considered almost a holiday village.

Mr. Hyppolite, I believe you want to speak.

[D/Commr Marc-Arthur Hyppolite]

A holiday village: the Correctional Service disagrees with that kind of assessment.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I do as well.