Evidence of meeting #4 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was taser.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10 a.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I'm sure we have data. We certainly keep very detailed information with respect to deaths and serious injuries.
I'm pretty confident in saying, unfortunately, that a number of individuals have died as a result of the RCMP shooting them. Any number is a significant number, and one is certainly too many. But those numbers would certainly far exceed deaths proximal to the deployment of a CEW.
10 a.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
You would like information and details on the incidents?
Certainly.
10 a.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
By the way, we do cumulative reporting as well with respect to all in-custody deaths. We would treat an in-custody death to include the death of someone we were trying to arrest or in response to a scene. The individual really often isn't technically in custody, but we report on all of those circumstances, and those figures are certainly available. I think there have been, in total, about 11 deaths proximal to the use of the taser since the weapon was introduced.
I can probably get you immediately some information with respect to the number of overall deaths. I can certainly undertake to provide to the committee, Mr. Chairman, details with respect to that over the last number of years.
10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you. That's what I was interested in. Perhaps you could supply that to me.
Go ahead.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
When you compare the number of people who have died following the use of a firearm and the number of people who've died as a result of the use of a taser, would you say there has been a reduction in the number of firearm-related deaths because of the use of the taser? Can you draw a comparison there?
10 a.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
There is some indication that there have been reductions. I'm now not talking just about the experience of the RCMP, but more broadly. There has been a reduction in the incidents where firearms have been used and in deaths resulting from firearms. I would say candidly that the data in this area are not sufficient, which is one of the reasons we are very supportive of the notion that we would, number one, track data much more carefully, report on data much more regularly, and work with policing partners and others to try to establish a better fact base to make those sorts of comparisons.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
At this point, we therefore cannot confirm that the use of tasers has allowed for a decrease in the use of firearms. That is what I gather. This is not something we can state for the time being because you have not yet completed these in-depth analyses.
10:05 a.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I certainly think that more analysis is required, but I have no doubt that the taser has saved lives. I cited one example today. I have no doubt that the taser has saved lives.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
That is your opinion, but it is not based on facts. That is what you are telling me?
10:05 a.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
That is indeed my opinion, but it is based on the experience of our officers and that of members of other police forces. In fact, it is more difficult to determine
what could have happened as opposed to what did happen. When we shoot someone and they die, it's a fact, the person's dead. When we go to a scene and we don't shoot someone, it's much more subjective as to whether or not we would have had to shoot them in other circumstances. Every circumstance is different. But we certainly have some specific examples.
I can tell you that as I travel around the country and visit with officers, their experience tells them that they are safer and the public is safer because we have that tool in our tool box.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what you said earlier, in comparing the taser and firearms, you feel that they are both weapons. Is that correct? Can it be said that a taser is like a firearm, in that it is as important as firearms in police activity?
10:05 a.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I certainly would agree that both of them are weapons. I think that all of the evidence indicates that firearms are far more dangerous and that people who are shot are much more likely to be seriously injured. It's almost impossible to shoot someone and not have them be seriously injured, where in the vast majority of cases where people are subject to a CEW deployment, they suffer no injury or very little injury.
What I said in my opening comments and as reflected in our policy is that the CEW is classified as a prohibited firearm. “Prohibited firearm” is a term in the Criminal Code of Canada, and the definition in the Criminal Code of Canada of a prohibited firearm is such that a taser fits that definition. That is our interpretation of the provisions in the Criminal Code, based on the advice from the Department of Justice.
10:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you very much.
We'll now go over to Mr. Richards, please.
10:05 a.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Commissioner, for being here today.
I also noticed that we have a few of our men in uniform here with us today. I would like to say that certainly they have my utmost respect for the work they do to protect Canadians. That's an important point to be made. Mr. Oliphant indicated that his only concern was for public safety. My concern has to be for the safety of our officers as well.
10:05 a.m.
An hon. member
He deserves a point of order on that.
10:05 a.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
That is not what I said. Very clearly, the record will show that I weigh out both of them and I come in support of the public eventually. I am very concerned about members. I have worked very closely with the RCMP for much of my career. I know many officers. I am very concerned about them.
On balance, I come out in favour of public safety.
10:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you.
Mr. Richards, I'll give you a little extra time. Go ahead.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB
Thank you very much. I believe that is debate, because that's certainly not how I understood the comment. But regardless--
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, this is a very clear misstatement of facts, and I would suggest that the honourable member retract the statement. It is a legitimate point of order; it is not a point of debate. The member has misrepresented the comments of the member in a gross and unfair manner.