Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Time...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have two minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much for that. I guess my question would follow through on that or be in a similar vein.

We're dealing with the appointment of a commissioner, and we're also dealing with the day-to-day operation of a police force--not the least of which is that it's one of the largest police forces in the world, which has such a responsibility. I don't think there is another police force in the world that has the three components. You are a municipal police force, you are a provincial police force, and you are a national police force. All the push-pull and the different levels of government you must deal with and be sensitive to, everyone from a municipal councillor in New Brunswick to a provincial premier to the Solicitor General of Canada....

I guess my question would be.... You made a statement that you believe the RCMP should become more distant from government operations. In other words, there should be an even greater arm's length between government and the police force. Can you cite an example? Because I look at the Ontario Provincial Police and it doesn't really have a dissimilar connection to the Government of Ontario vis-à-vis the RCMP, nor does the Sûreté du Québec in its relationship with the Province of Quebec.

So I guess for the purposes of Canadians out there, why would the federal government want to see anything much different, other than perhaps the fact that Ontario has a civilian oversight? That is different from the RCMP.

Either Mr. McDonell or Mr. Souccar...?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I can take this one.

First of all, you described the RCMP very well. We are a large and complex organization with a diverse mandate, different from any police agency that I know of in the world.

I can also tell you that we are the envy of the world. If you compare the RCMP with some of our U.S. partners—the Drug Enforcement Administration; Immigration and Customs Enforcement; Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms; Customs and Border Protection; the U.S. Coast Guard; the Federal Bureau of Investigations—all of them have common mandates, and they're continually stepping over each other. I know most of the number ones and number twos in these organizations personally, and I've been told by them that they envy us because of our mandate and our ability to move things around to accomplish our operational goals.

Having that wide mandate includes having contract policing, our uniform policing, which is an excellent training ground for police officers coming into the RCMP, learning how to do front-line police work, and eventually going to specialized areas such as drugs or national security.

Also, we have the ability to link, to connect the dots. You could have a highway patrol officer in uniform who pulls a car over on the highway near Saskatchewan and finds 50 kilos of cocaine in the trunk of the car, driven by somebody who's driving the cocaine for a major criminal organization. Very quickly, being one organization, that uniformed police officer can make one phone call, and the drug squad can be involved. Where was the cocaine going? If that person is willing to cooperate and identify the final destination of the cocaine, we can be the recipient of it and continue the investigation.

Having that wide mandate is the envy of the world.

Part of your question was about separation from government. When I talk about having a little longer arm's length and more autonomy, more nimbleness and flexibility in the RCMP, it's simply to allow us to meet our operational objectives quicker.

One example I can give you is the expenditures. This is an area I've been responsible for in federal policing, covert expenditures and expenditures for the purchase of evidence, for the payment to human sources. If you exceed a certain level, you need approval from Treasury Board. This has to go through several levels--the Minister of Public Safety, the President of the Treasury Board, and so on--for approval to be given. The amounts are low. They're old-level amounts. I've been pushing to change them for three or four years now, and still nothing has happened. With today's expenditures at 20-year-old levels, we find ourselves needing to get that authority all the time. Police work can't wait for that. The urgency of investigations sometimes requires us to make those expenditures quickly. Having ministers approve an operational expenditure, a purchase of evidence, or the payment of a human source, as I have told ministers before, could potentially require them to come to the stand and testify.

The last case I testified on was only a couple of years ago. It was a Hells Angels case. The point of the defence was whether the minster knew. Was the minister involved in giving the authorizations? My answer was no, because the minister was not involved. But this was one example where a minister could have been involved by saying yes or no to the approval. If it's a rubber stamp, then why are we going there?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Norlock. You took the full time. We'll come back on the next round to Mr. McColeman.

We'll now move back to the Liberals. Go ahead, Mr. Kania.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Sir, when I ended my questioning last time, the last thing you said was that you had spoken with Patricia Hassard about these problems. That was the first time that you had reported any of these problems to the government. Is that accurate?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

That's correct.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

You said during your opening, before questions, “the phone call was made to me, and I answered honestly”. Were you referring to the call with Madame Morin or with Ms. Hassard?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

My conversation with Patricia Hassard, as I said, was very short, given the illness of her dad and that she had to travel out of town. She couldn't speak with me, but she told me that Marie-Lucie Morin was going to be contacting me. Again, she is the national security advisor to the Prime Minister.

Approximately an hour later that same day, I received a call from Marie-Lucie Morin, who indicated to me that retired Senior Deputy Commissioner Sweeney had had his exit interview. As she put it, he had said that there were some problems, but he didn't open up. She said that it's not like he opened up three kimonos, but clearly there are some problems. She asked me some questions, and I answered truthfully.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

That was the first time you advised anybody outside the RCMP about any of these concerns you had.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

To the best of my recollection it was, yes.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

What did you tell her during that phone conversation?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Again, it wasn't a very long phone conversation. I believe that she had broken her wrist and was on her way to the hospital. I was at brunch. I had left my wife inside the restaurant. I was on the sidewalk speaking on the phone. She said to me that we'd have to speak again, that I should speak with Bill Elliott, and that she would be speaking with him. And the conversation ended. I told her that the situation was getting to a point where it was starting to boil over.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Do you have any documentation, signed letters--Mr. McDonell, as well--in terms of these complaints? I know that there's a July 2010 letter. Do you have any documentation, internal or external, that was prepared that documented them?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I do not.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Did you send a letter to Ms. Morin or anybody else?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

No, I did not.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

When you had this conversation that one time, she indicated that she would get back to you. Is that correct?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

That's correct.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

That was the July 2010 conversation.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

That's correct.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Did either of you then, afterwards, discuss this with anybody else in the government?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

She called me back, if my memory serves me well, and told me that the matter had been turned over to Deputy Minister Bill Baker, the Deputy Minister of Public Safety, and that since the RCMP falls under Public Safety, she had moved the matter over to him.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

When did she tell you that?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

That would have been very soon, a day or two, after my initial conversation with her. I probably have notes on it somewhere. It was, again, very shortly afterwards that I met with Bill Baker.