Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

We have ministerial directives that are received--

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

That are directed to...?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

To the RCMP: ministerial directives on a number of issues, national security matters, and so on. In fact, Mike can maybe speak about that; he was in charge of national security at one point. Ministerial directives do come in from time to time, but in terms of operational direction, absolutely not. There should not be any directive issued operationally.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Right. And if we go back to previous commissioners when there were issues, one of the issues was during what's been termed the sponsorship scandal, that there were issues about moneys being moved, I believe it was.... I can't recall exactly, but it was moneys being moved that somehow got associated with that issue. Is it fair enough to say that was an issue a number of years ago?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes, vaguely. I don't know all the details. At the time I was not involved in that specific area of policing. However, yes, I vaguely recall what you're saying.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I think it's fair enough to say that whatever that was, there was some kind of political involvement in the organization that probably should not have occurred.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I'm afraid I can't answer that.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

When Commissioner Elliott was appointed, everything was not, as we would say, 100% within the organization. I think in the July 21 letter there's some indication there had been issues that had brought the RCMP some negative opinions, among them the pension issue and so on.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

No. It wasn't then, and it's not now.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

No, but there were divisions then, within the organization. People felt that things were not not right, because their pension money was being used for other purposes?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. MacKenzie.

We'll now move back to Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We saw a lot of movement out of senior management. I'm wondering if the conditions you described led a number of people to be forced out, or were people leaving voluntarily? How did those changes come about?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I'm not aware of anyone who was forced out.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'm speaking in a less direct sense. I'm saying conditions were such that people who otherwise would have stayed decided they couldn't deal with the situation and walked away. I'm wondering about that.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

You're absolutely right. I know of some members who left much too early because they felt that they needed to move on to something else, given the situation inside the RCMP. I'm aware of some who were close to retirement but could have stuck around for an extra year or two, and others who retired simply because it was time to retire. They reached their 35 years and they had plans to retire. I think there's a combination of all three.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

How did the turmoil, the tumult, affect morale and the ability of people to do their job?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

You mean the retirements, or the situation that existed?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'm talking about the situation with the commissioner, the situation you were describing as being abusive and disrespectful. How did that affect morale and the ability of people to do their job?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

It affects morale to the extent that over 33 years, I, and I assume others, have found it fun to come to work. If I had to do it all over again, policing is what I would want to do. It's a great job. It's a challenging job, and there's no reason for not being able to enjoy coming to work. We don't necessarily deal with pleasant issues every day, but we choose to do that and it's the nature of the beast. When it gets to a point that you have people saying it's just not fun coming to work any more, it's time to move on.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Would you go further than that? Was it getting to the point where it was toxic at the end of that three years?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

It was becoming toxic, morale was starting to dwindle, and the interaction was not respectful.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

There have been a number of appointments recently to the senior management team, and those appointments have not received order-in-council approval yet, so they haven't been installed, as I understand it. If we're looking at having a new commissioner, talk to me about that process.

How important is it for a new commissioner to be able to come in and put people in place that the commissioner believes can carry out the necessary changes? In other words, how important is it to ensure that those order-in-council appointments don't proceed, so that the new commissioner has the opportunity to start with a clean slate?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I suppose it's no different from when Brian Burke took over the Toronto Maple Leafs as general manager and he made a bunch of trades.

If you come into an organization, ideally you can bring your own team in. But unfortunately, that's not the way things work. There are police chiefs who are named around the country on a regular basis, and they inherit teams they have to work with. In this instance, potentially a new commissioner can work with the people who are already in place. But his views may be different, and he may want a different team. I think it's going to depend on the next person coming in, and whether he or she can work with the people in place.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

But we don't want to get a carry-forward. Obviously there has been division, and there are problems. Isn't it important for the government to ensure that those order-in-council appointments don't go forward so that the commissioner has as much flexibility as possible? Would that be a fair characterization?